Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> On 10/12/2009 12:00 PM PT, Rod Speed typed:
>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>
>> Its completely useless now.
> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
justification. Today it has none.
Arno
>> The only thing that makes any sense anymore is the SMART data.
> --
> "It is said that the lonely eagle flies to the mountain peaks while the
> lowly ant crawls the ground, but cannot the soul of the ant soar as high
> as the eagle?" --unknown
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> Ant wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>
>>> Its completely useless now.
>
>> Really? How so?
>
> What it claims to be doing isnt even possible with modern hard drives.
How old were the the modern HDDs started? I can't remember when SMART
started. I think my former Quantum Fireball 6.4 GB EIDE HDD had a simple
SMART.
>> I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>
> A SMART scan does that much better.
OK.
--
"Above ground I shall be food for kites; below I shall be food for
mole-crickets and ants. Why rob one to feed the other?" --Juang-zu (4th
Century B.C.)
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>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>> Its completely useless now.
>
>> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>
> SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
> a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
> justification. Today it has none.
OK, I have used smartctl's long tests before. I assume that was enough
to find them.
--
"What reason, like the careful ant, draws laboriously together, the wind
of accident sometimes collects in a moment." --Friedrich von Schiller
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Ant wrote
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Ant wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>>> Its completely useless now.
>>> Really? How so?
>> What it claims to be doing isnt even possible with modern hard drives.
> How old were the the modern HDDs started?
The last time what it claims to be able to do was possible was
with stepper motor head actuator drives, mostly MFM and RLL
and a very few of the first IDEs.
> I can't remember when SMART started.
That varied with the manufacturer.
> I think my former Quantum Fireball 6.4 GB EIDE HDD had a simple SMART.
Yeah, most of that era did.
>>> I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> On 10/13/2009 6:41 AM PT, Arno typed:
>>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>>> Its completely useless now.
>>
>>> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>>
>> SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
>> a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
>> justification. Today it has none.
> OK, I have used smartctl's long tests before. I assume that was enough
> to find them.
I believe so. I have done this repeatedly on several disks with problems
and the results were basically the same. One critial difference between
now and the time when SpinRiste made sense is that modern disks read
the signal in analog form while old disks did immerdiately convert
the signal to 1/0. Analog reads allow a much better signal quality
assessment, and hence assesment of the margin between the signal read
and one that would result in a non-recoverable sector. This way
marginal sectors can be flagged as bad before there are actual read
errors. Hostorically, this required the tricks SpinRite did, but
not anymore.
>>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>>> Its completely useless now.
>>> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>> SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
>> a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
>> justification. Today it has none.
> OK, I have used smartctl's long tests before. I assume that was enough
> to find them.
"Does SpinRite support hard drive SMART capability? Yes. SpinRite
supports SMART more completely and usefully than anything else ever has.
Upon first use, SpinRite activates and enables a drive's disabled SMART
subsystem. When SpinRite is not actively running on the drive, the
"static" state of the drive's SMART data is displayed. When SpinRite is
running on a drive, the drive's SMART data — both the standard SMART
parameters and the more detailed SMART event counters — are continuously
polled, monitored, and displayed. Much more useful information about the
true health and robustness of a drive can be gained by monitoring the
SMART system's feedback while the drive is under an actual workload. No
other software has ever done this.
Note: Some default SATA configurations can limit SpinRite's ability to
obtain SMART information from SATA drives even though all other data
recovery operations will work without limitation. See the SATA
knowledgebase article for specific information about SpinRite v6.0's
operation with SATA drives and controllers."
"... Version 6 is rather different from previous versions. It offers
full access to the entire disk surface regardless of partitioning,
Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology (SMART) parameters
and control of partial scanning within a specified percentage range..."
It sounds SpinRite v6 is still useful. Am I missing something?
--
"The constant creeping of ants will wear away the stone." --unknown
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>>>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>>>> Its completely useless now.
>>>> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>>> SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
>>> a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
>>> justification. Today it has none.
>> OK, I have used smartctl's long tests before. I assume that was enough to find them.
> "Does SpinRite support hard drive SMART capability? Yes. SpinRite supports SMART more completely and usefully than
> anything else ever has.
Another bare faced lie.
> Upon first use, SpinRite activates and enables a drive's disabled SMART subsystem. When SpinRite is not actively
> running on the drive, the "static" state of the drive's SMART data is displayed.
> When SpinRite is running on a drive, the drive's SMART data — both
> the standard SMART parameters and the more detailed SMART event
> counters — are continuously polled, monitored, and displayed.
> Much more useful information about the true health and robustness of a drive can be gained by monitoring the SMART
> system's feedback while the drive is under an actual workload. No other software has ever done this.
Another bare faced lie.
And it doesnt change enough to matter anyway.
> Note: Some default SATA configurations can limit SpinRite's ability to obtain SMART information from SATA drives even
> though all other data recovery operations will work without limitation. See the SATA
> knowledgebase article for specific information about SpinRite v6.0's
> operation with SATA drives and controllers."
> "... Version 6 is rather different from previous versions. It offers full access to the entire disk surface regardless
> of partitioning,
So does any SMART tool, fool.
> Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology (SMART) parameters
> and control of partial scanning within a specified percentage range..."
Meaningless waffle.
> It sounds SpinRite v6 is still useful.
Nope.
> Am I missing something?
Yep, that its not doing anything that any SMART tool isnt doing.
Ant <ant@zimage.comant> wrote:
> On 10/13/2009 10:29 PM PT, Ant typed:
>>>>>> Hmm, maybe I should run SpinRite v5 on that HDD later.
>>>>> Its completely useless now.
>>>> Really? How so? I remember using it in the past and finding bad sectors.
>>> SpinRite does find bad sectors, but not more or others than
>>> a long SMART selftest. Before disk selftests SpinRite had its
>>> justification. Today it has none.
>> OK, I have used smartctl's long tests before. I assume that was enough
>> to find them.
> "Does SpinRite support hard drive SMART capability? Yes. SpinRite
> supports SMART more completely and usefully than anything else ever has.
A direct lie.
> Upon first use, SpinRite activates and enables a drive's disabled SMART
> subsystem.
Yes, I do that manually. HDDsentinel does it. Linux smartd does it.
Speedfan does it. Other tools do it too.
> When SpinRite is not actively running on the drive, the
> "static" state of the drive's SMART data is displayed. When SpinRite is
> running on a drive, the drive's SMART data ? both the standard SMART
> parameters and the more detailed SMART event counters ? are continuously
> polled, monitored, and displayed.
So what? Nobody neds that. It is far better to have change-monitoring
for the critical attributes than to manually have to look at a
continuously updated display. If you really want it, many tools
allow you to do this.
> Much more useful information about the
> true health and robustness of a drive can be gained by monitoring the
> SMART system's feedback while the drive is under an actual workload. No
> other software has ever done this.
Another direct lie.
> Note: Some default SATA configurations can limit SpinRite's ability to
> obtain SMART information from SATA drives even though all other data
> recovery operations will work without limitation. See the SATA
> knowledgebase article for specific information about SpinRite v6.0's
> operation with SATA drives and controllers."
> "... Version 6 is rather different from previous versions. It offers
> full access to the entire disk surface regardless of partitioning,
> Self-Monitoring, Analysis, and Reporting Technology (SMART) parameters
> and control of partial scanning within a specified percentage range..."
> It sounds SpinRite v6 is still useful. Am I missing something?
Yes. These people have abandoned all atempts at honesty. I do not
say their tool is useless, but it is not better than the
alternatives.
Incidentially several other tools will run regular surface
scans, and they are critical for early problem detection.
Re: Bad Clusters vs. Bad Sectors 
Linear Mode
