> Joel <joel@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > ALL printers will require Printer DRIVER to communicate between Computer
> >> > and Printer.
> >>
> >> This is not correct.
> >
> > Then you are correct and it must be a DEAD printer.
> >
> >> > The printer may not need any special driver (or the system or program
> >> > handle them) to print some special format as long as the system
> >> > supports it/them.
> >>
> >> This is unclear, but appears to be restating what I said above:
> >>
> >> "If the file is a type the printer can understand, no, just send that
> >> file to the printer."
> >
> > This is correct and incorrect.
> >
> > Correct, the printer will except all font types it supports
>
> Not fonts, but PDLs: Page Description Languages:
May not font, because I had my first printer way back in late 70's or
early 80's and it supported several different types of fonts including
PostScript and heck with some special driver it can even do some Plotter
printing too. But none of them is your problem.
> http://www.undocprint.org/formats/pa...tion_languages
>
> > Incorrect, but the printer need DRIVER to communicate between Computer and
> > Printer.
> >
> > Samething, you may have the right idea but without internet, without
> > computer, or without reader then you can communicate with internet user to
> > share your right idea.
>
> There seems to be a basic misunderstanding between two things here. The
> first is the PDL. The second is the method of getting the file to the
> printer. Those are two separate things.
It doesn't matter what you want the printer to do, it will have to have a
DRIVER to be able to communicate with the computer. PDL or whatever, if
there is a software to allow the printer to support some odd language, then
it will require a special software and the PRINTER DRIVER.
> Joel <joel@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joel <joel@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Think about your own question: "It is possible to print without one on a
> >> >> network printer by using FTP to transfer the file to the printer"
> >> >
> >> > YES and NO
> >> >
> >> > YES, you can transfer the FILE to a remoted system, then have someone at the
> >> > remoted system print the file for you
> >> >
> >> > NO, FTP is File Transferring Protocal (not File To Print) so you can't print
> >> > using FTP
> >>
> >> This is incorrect. HP JetDirect print servers (and maybe other brands)
> >> will accept and print files sent by FTP.
> >
> > You must be kidding right? and why not saying that all Windows OSes come
> > FPT application that most people don't use.
>
> It's hard to tell what you're saying. Yes, even Windows includes an FTP
> client, and yes, it can be used to transfer files to a JetDirect. Kind
> of sounds like you're saying that since most people don't use it, it
> doesn't exist, but that can't be right.
Yes, you may send file to JetDirect or JetInDirect, but the JetDirect and
JetInDirect will have to communicate with the printer via Printer Driver.
I don't say it's exist or not, but I only say that if you want to PRINT
then the system will have to have Printer Driver installed in order to
print. Samething
- In order to transfer a data from one system to other you will need
Tranfering Protocol.
- In order to communicate with the printer the system will need Printer
Driver
- In orer to print the Printer Driver will have to have correct command to
send to the printer.
And as I said the only way you can Print without Printer Driver is "Print
To File"
> > And Print Server is a SERVER not printer driver so it may allow to have
> > access to printer, but the printer just won't print without Printer Driver.
>
> As I show below, you are mistaken.
>
> >> >> The idea that anything can be printed without a driver is nonsensical,
> >> >> unless "anything" is no more than plain ASCII text.
> >> >
> >> > Wrong question again, even with TEXT the system still need printer driver
> >> > in order to print... anything or everything.
> >>
> >> This is incorrect. To use the example of HP LaserJet printers, you can
> >> create and print files without a driver if the printer already
> >> understands that type of file. For example, create a text file using a
> >> simple text editor (Notepad, not Word), then send it to the printer via
> >> FTP or port 9100 or lpd or several other ways. No driver.
> >>
> >> Certainly there are terrible host-based printers which require drivers
> >> because all they can render are bitmaps. But not all printers are like
> >> that, even on Windows.
> >>
> >> >> A driver (and, for that matter, an application) is required. ALWAYS.
> >>
> >> See the example above. And watch out for absolutes.
> >
> > Then give and prove your point.
>
> I did, but let me repeat:
>
> >> To use the example of HP LaserJet printers, you can
> >> create and print files without a driver if the printer already
> >> understands that type of file. For example, create a text file using a
> >> simple text editor (Notepad, not Word), then send it to the printer via
> >> FTP or port 9100 or lpd or several other ways. No driver.
>
> In more detail, and even on Windows:
>
> Run Notepad.
> Type in a few lines of text:
>
> "Printers can print files in their native PDLs without drivers.
> This page is proof of that."
>
> Save the file as sample.txt. This is a plain ASCII file.
> Close Notepad.
> Start a command shell (cmd).
> FTP the file to the printer. For this example, we have a JetDirect
> print server at 192.168.1.50:
>
> ftp 192.168.1.50
>
> Connected to laser.
> 230 FTP Server Ready
> User (lasernone)):
>
> Press Enter for no user name.
>
> 331 Enter password.
> Password:
>
> Press Enter for no password.
>
> 230-Hewlett-Packard FTP Print Server Version 3.0.
>
> Directory: Description:
> --------------------------
> PORT hp LaserJet 4250
>
> To print a file use the command put <filename> [portx]
> or 'cd' to a desired port and use put <filename>.
>
> 230 User logged in.
> Remote system type is UNIX.
> Using binary mode to transfer files.
>
> ftp>
>
> put sample.txt
>
> 200 Port command successful.
> 150 Opening BINARY mode data connection.
> 226-Ready
> 226-Processing job.
> 226 Transfer complete.
> ftp: 91 bytes sent in 0.00Seconds 91000.00Kbytes/sec.
> ftp>
>
> And the page prints. Yes, I actually did this to collect the output
> above.
>
> quit (to leave the FTP program).
>
> On this particular printer, it would have also have worked if the sample
> file was PostScript, PCL, or PDF.
>
> No driver was used to create the file or to print it.
I see you try to use the printing command, but it doesn't mean anything,
and as I said in order to print something to PAPER the printer must have
Printer Driver installed in order to print.
And that's why the printer manufactures always include Printer Driver for
different OS, and this is why we have incompatible and upgrading driver now
and then.
>
> On 1-Nov-2009, Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com> wrote:
>
> > No driver was used to create the file or to print it.
>
> AFAIR the old dot matrix printers didn't need drivers,
> you just sent ASCII characters to them, just like
> you used to do with the ASR33 Teletypes, and Dec
> Writer page printers.
> The drivers came in when you had to convert an
> application produced document to something
> the printer could understand.
> And if you got it wrong, instead of a nice printed
> page you got sheet after sheet of Postscript
> command language, and had to pull the plug
> before you ran out of paper.
Old DOT Matrix printer may not need specific driver to print the standard
ASCII character, or the OS has built-in enough commands to send to printer.
But when you want to print some fancy font then even the matrix printer will
require driver to do some fancy printing.
I do remember the good old day that with some BBS we can send some
printing command in message, so the remote printer of any user who read that
text message will start printing.
> And that's why the printer manufactures always include Printer Driver for
> different OS, and this is why we have incompatible and upgrading driver
> now
> and then.
Some dipstick keeps pratting on that we should blame HP, not
MS, claiming that MS don't write the drivers.
It's MS$ that keeps producing crap operating systems.
MS know how to drive ancient printers because Win95,
Win98, WinME, XP, knows how to drive them.
It's the crap software writers that thought of installing
some legacy programs in compatibility mode, but
didn't follow it through with using printer drivers in
compatibility mode.
So Linux support printers ancient and modern,
Win7 doesn't, and Vista was rubbish.
Sooner MS sack Ballmer the better, he hasn't
a clue about developing what customers want.
I can see MS$ going the same way as PanAm,
and TWA, even the mighty can fall if they don't
listen to their customers.
On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:55:48 -0600, Joel wrote:
> > > YES, you can transfer the FILE to a remoted system, then have someone at the
> > > remoted system print the file for you
> > >
> > > NO, FTP is File Transferring Protocal (not File To Print) so you can't print
> > > using FTP
> >
> > This is incorrect. HP JetDirect print servers (and maybe other brands)
> > will accept and print files sent by FTP.
>
> You must be kidding right? and why not saying that all Windows OSes come
> FPT application that most people don't use.
It's a rather straightforward task to set up a print driver which does
catch files by ftp and sends them to the printer - and it is possible to
build this funtion into a network printer directly.
> And Print Server is a SERVER not printer driver so it may allow to have
> access to printer, but the printer just won't print without Printer Driver.
The more you built into the printer, the less has to be done by its
driver. It does make the printer more expensive and lexx flexible, but
you may have certain improvements which are worth the effort.
> Then give and prove your point.
"ftp" something to any receiver, e.g. as ps, could be set up to work
this way, you agree? From the sender's point of view it does not matter
how it is done, but it can be done - and it can be even done for .doc,
..xls and anything else.
Even the manual operation is something which proves this point: burn a
PDF to disk, send this to a copy shop and they may print and return it
to you, without any need for any driver on your own side. All you might
need is a credit card and some post men.
There must be some kind of interface between computer and printer
anywhere - but there are many print servers around which have more or
less unidirectional communication only and it's a matter of definition
what you may call driving and what not. Is it a "driver" to move ink or
toner to the paper or does it know where to make something black on its
own?
On 2-Nov-2009, Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> wrote:
> There must be some kind of interface between computer and printer
> anywhere - but there are many print servers around which have more or
> less unidirectional communication only and it's a matter of definition
> what you may call driving and what not.
Now we are just nit-picking over semantics. In the old
days of the ASR33 teletype, and printers, that just understood
ASCII, the application did the driving, and talked directly
to the I/O, by sending ASCII data bits to an address.
Drivers evolved with different printer languages appeared,
like it was not much good sending Postscript to a dot
matrix, And drivers got more and more complex as
printers got more complex, Postscript, vector graphics,
colour. But in the early days we had no concept of
separate drivers.
MS$'s failing is not to recognise the need to support
both ancient and modern printers Whilst some
programs can be installed (and work) in compatibility
mode, there is no such concept of a compatibility
mode for drivers. If MS$ recognised this, then Linux
which drives printers, scanners, etc, both
ancient and modern, would not be such a threat to
MS$ dominance. MS$ has in the past with earlier
OS's supported these peripherals.
With a compatibility mode for drivers we could use
XP or even Win98 drivers for peripherals.
Many corporate users like the simplicity of Linux and
are getting fed up with bug ridden, insecure, software,
with constant updates and patches "Installing 17 of
29 critical updates" "Don't you dare switch off" then
finding the updates have stopped some important
application working. And life is too short to keep
explaining the problem over and over again to MS$'s
support lines, even when you pay through the nose for
MS premium support.
So it's endless user support, constant tech support,
seemingly endless retraining, loss of productivity, MS$
can be a pain in the ****.
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:33:42 GMT, Ato_Zee wrote:
> In the old
> days of the ASR33 teletype, and printers, that just understood
> ASCII, the application did the driving, and talked directly
> to the I/O, by sending ASCII data bits to an address.
> Drivers evolved with different printer languages appeared,
> like it was not much good sending Postscript to a dot
> matrix, And drivers got more and more complex as
> printers got more complex, Postscript, vector graphics,
> colour. But in the early days we had no concept of
> separate drivers.
In the early days each slightly more advanced application hat a printer
driver of its own.
> MS$'s failing is not to recognise the need to support
> both ancient and modern printers Whilst some
> programs can be installed (and work) in compatibility
> mode, there is no such concept of a compatibility
> mode for drivers.
At least it was good enough to install a single printer driver which
could be used by all applications.
But currently I'm in the need for a driver for an ancient printer (a
label printer with parallel port only), while neither Win 3.* is
available, nor a parallel port - and the usb2parallel did not work for
this special printer.
> > And that's why the printer manufactures always include Printer Driver for
> > different OS, and this is why we have incompatible and upgrading driver
> > now
> > and then.
> Some dipstick keeps pratting on that we should blame HP, not
> MS, claiming that MS don't write the drivers.
> It's MS$ that keeps producing crap operating systems.
> MS know how to drive ancient printers because Win95,
> Win98, WinME, XP, knows how to drive them.
> It's the crap software writers that thought of installing
> some legacy programs in compatibility mode, but
> didn't follow it through with using printer drivers in
> compatibility mode.
> So Linux support printers ancient and modern,
> Win7 doesn't, and Vista was rubbish.
> Sooner MS sack Ballmer the better, he hasn't
> a clue about developing what customers want.
> I can see MS$ going the same way as PanAm,
> and TWA, even the mighty can fall if they don't
> listen to their customers.
Now, we are/were talking about printing *without* Printer DRIVER,
remember?
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:55:48 -0600, Joel wrote:
> > > > YES, you can transfer the FILE to a remoted system, then have someone at the
> > > > remoted system print the file for you
> > > >
> > > > NO, FTP is File Transferring Protocal (not File To Print) so you can't print
> > > > using FTP
> > >
> > > This is incorrect. HP JetDirect print servers (and maybe other brands)
> > > will accept and print files sent by FTP.
> >
> > You must be kidding right? and why not saying that all Windows OSes come
> > FPT application that most people don't use.
>
> It's a rather straightforward task to set up a print driver which does
> catch files by ftp and sends them to the printer - and it is possible to
> build this funtion into a network printer directly.
It's possible that the Printer Server (not FPT) has built-in option to
send Printing Command to printer (just like NotePad, Word, WordPerfect,
Browser, and Usenet Reader etc.). But again, the system with the printer
connected to must have Printer Driver in order to tell the printer to print
to paper.
Again, without printer driver Windows apps give the option to "Print To
File" so you can transfer to system with working printer to print from
there.
> > And Print Server is a SERVER not printer driver so it may allow to have
> > access to printer, but the printer just won't print without Printer Driver.
>
> The more you built into the printer, the less has to be done by its
> driver. It does make the printer more expensive and lexx flexible, but
> you may have certain improvements which are worth the effort.
>
> > Then give and prove your point.
>
> "ftp" something to any receiver, e.g. as ps, could be set up to work
> this way, you agree? From the sender's point of view it does not matter
> how it is done, but it can be done - and it can be even done for .doc,
> .xls and anything else.
As we understand FTP stands for FILE Transfering Protocol which
transfering DATA from one system to other. Yes, there are program not only
can access to remote system (via internet, network, or back to the good ole
day through modem hooked to phoneline) and it could have option to send
Printing Command to a remote system.
But *again* the computer still have to have Printer Driver installed in
order to accept the printing command.
FTP doesn't care what format you send, it treats everything as DATA so you
can send .doc, text, **** photo, movie, goverment secret doc and on and on.
> Even the manual operation is something which proves this point: burn a
> PDF to disk, send this to a copy shop and they may print and return it
> to you, without any need for any driver on your own side. All you might
> need is a credit card and some post men.
You are correct, but that isn't what we are talking about. Or you may not
need the printer driver, but in order to print your PDF file the shop still
need printer driver INSTALLED.
> There must be some kind of interface between computer and printer
> anywhere - but there are many print servers around which have more or
> less unidirectional communication only and it's a matter of definition
> what you may call driving and what not. Is it a "driver" to move ink or
> toner to the paper or does it know where to make something black on its
> own?
>
> - Martin
Yes,
- The printer has built-in the Printer Head with option to move around to
spray ink to paper.
- The printer connected to computer via Parallel or USB port
- The Cable requires bunch of WIRES and much be in working order to take the
printing command from computer
- The computer will convert whatever Font, Text, Graphic, Color etc. into
the computer language that the printer understand, then the printer will
follow the command
- And all of the above won't do any good without the correct and working
Printer Driver installed.
The driver may not control the INK which usually the duty of the printer
utility comes with the printer, or some application may call Printing
Management (or something like that)
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:17:19 -0600, Joel wrote:
> Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:55:48 -0600, Joel wrote:
> > > > > YES, you can transfer the FILE to a remoted system, then have someone at the
> > > > > remoted system print the file for you
> > > > >
> > > > > NO, FTP is File Transferring Protocal (not File To Print) so you can't print
> > > > > using FTP
> > > >
> > > > This is incorrect. HP JetDirect print servers (and maybe other brands)
> > > > will accept and print files sent by FTP.
> > >
> > > You must be kidding right? and why not saying that all Windows OSes come
> > > FPT application that most people don't use.
> >
> > It's a rather straightforward task to set up a print driver which does
> > catch files by ftp and sends them to the printer - and it is possible to
> > build this funtion into a network printer directly.
>
> It's possible that the Printer Server (not FPT) has built-in option to
> send Printing Command to printer (just like NotePad, Word, WordPerfect,
> Browser, and Usenet Reader etc.). But again, the system with the printer
> connected to must have Printer Driver in order to tell the printer to print
> to paper.
That does not matter, from the user's point of view. There's no printer
driver on his own system.
> > Even the manual operation is something which proves this point: burn a
> > PDF to disk, send this to a copy shop and they may print and return it
> > to you, without any need for any driver on your own side. All you might
> > need is a credit card and some post men.
>
> You are correct, but that isn't what we are talking about. Or you may not
> need the printer driver, but in order to print your PDF file the shop still
> need printer driver INSTALLED.
You asked for a proof that systems without driver may work - and I
proofed it. All what you do name as using a printer driver might be
merged within a single device, within the casing of a single so called
printer. Would this make any difference to you? It does not matter
whether this is within a single device, a single building (the copy shop
from the building before) or split to multiple devices: Every printer
needs some kind of translation in order to know what to do with certain
bits in order to make certain dots out of them.
I doubt that you are able to give a working description what a driver is
and what not - but I'm very sure there are tons of configurations where
no driver is need on the user's computer, while there are networking and
printer options that may take certain files and create a printout from
them, maybe within external printer drivers, maybe without, but that
does not matter at all.
> > There must be some kind of interface between computer and printer
> > anywhere - but there are many print servers around which have more or
> > less unidirectional communication only and it's a matter of definition
> > what you may call driving and what not. Is it a "driver" to move ink or
> > toner to the paper or does it know where to make something black on its
> > own?
> >
> > - Martin
>
> Yes,
>
> - The printer has built-in the Printer Head with option to move around to
> spray ink to paper.
>
> - The printer connected to computer via Parallel or USB port
or SCSI or serial or centronix or or or.
Typical here would be a simple LAN cable, while WLAN is yet another
option, even Bluetooth may work, as well as "usb stick" network.
> - The Cable requires bunch of WIRES and much be in working order to take the
> printing command from computer
>
> - The computer will convert whatever Font, Text, Graphic, Color etc. into
> the computer language that the printer understand, then the printer will
> follow the command
>
> - And all of the above won't do any good without the correct and working
> Printer Driver installed.
>
> The driver may not control the INK which usually the duty of the printer
> utility comes with the printer, or some application may call Printing
> Management (or something like that)
Much of this can be done without anything what you consider to be a
driver.
Many printers are able to print directly from certain exchange formats.
Where's the "driver" when you take your SD card from your camera, plug
it into your printer and select to print .jpg number 12?
Please define "driver" - and I hope that your definition is more precise
than "any appropriate source or exchange format".
Re: Printer without driver 
none)):
Linear Mode
