I was looking at the APC website and spotted a 1500VA UPS for a little over
$200 (CDN). I looked at the specs and I couldn't believe it.. full load
(800W I think) had a runtime of about 10 minutes!
Who in the hell is going to fork out $200 to keep their PC on for 10 minutes
during a blackout ? I was expecting it to be like 60 - 90 minutes!
Why can a laptop battery that's a fraction of the size last 3 - 5 hours, yet
a UPS can only last a few minutes ? I wanted something to enable me to
continue working during a blackout - anywhere from 1 to 6 hours, but I'd
have to fork out like $10,000 for a big enough UPS. Uninteruptable Power
Supply is bull**** - when most of them are little more than a line
conditioner (and some don't even do that!).
Are there better indoor solutions for this ? emphises on indoors.. you
can't run a diesel generator in your living room.
> I was looking at the APC website and spotted a 1500VA UPS for a little over
> $200 (CDN). I looked at the specs and I couldn't believe it.. full load
> (800W I think) had a runtime of about 10 minutes!
>
> Who in the hell is going to fork out $200 to keep their PC on for 10 minutes
> during a blackout ? I was expecting it to be like 60 - 90 minutes!
Replace the regular battery in the UPS with a automobile or marine
deep-cycle battery, preferrably a sealed one so nasty acid fumes won't
slowly corrode your computer, furniture, carpet, etc. If you don't
get a sealed battery, get a maintenance-free one (plates made only of
lead-calcium alloy), not a low-maintenance one (at least some plates
made of lead-antimony) because the latter won't charge like the
original UPS battery.
"Skeleton Man" wrote in
<news:dLidnQCIb5S-s9bVnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@wightman.ca>:
> Hi all,
>
> I was looking at the APC website and spotted a 1500VA UPS for a little over
> $200 (CDN). I looked at the specs and I couldn't believe it.. full load
> (800W I think) had a runtime of about 10 minutes!
>
> Who in the hell is going to fork out $200 to keep their PC on for 10 minutes
> during a blackout ? I was expecting it to be like 60 - 90 minutes!
>
> Why can a laptop battery that's a fraction of the size last 3 - 5 hours, yet
> a UPS can only last a few minutes ? I wanted something to enable me to
> continue working during a blackout - anywhere from 1 to 6 hours, but I'd
> have to fork out like $10,000 for a big enough UPS. Uninteruptable Power
> Supply is bull**** - when most of them are little more than a line
> conditioner (and some don't even do that!).
>
> Are there better indoor solutions for this ? emphises on indoors.. you
> can't run a diesel generator in your living room.
>
> Chris
So is this APC 1500VA 860W UPS going to remain a secret that you only
know which one you're talking about? I can guess that it might be the
one at:
but I'm not going to waste much time investigating an unidentified UPS.
Every UPS has a maximum output current. They cannot supply more amps
than that. So at that full load of maximum amps, you have 10 minutes of
up time. This should be more than sufficient for their software client,
probably running as an NT service, to gracefully shutdown your computer.
So why would you buy a UPS whose maximum output amperage cannot sustain
the amperage consumed by everything you intent to hook up to it?
Obviously you will need a UPS with a higher current output (i.e., full
load). But then why are you hooking every piece of computer gear to the
UPS? Only the system unit and monitor should be hooked up to the UPS
(and maybe the router and/or cable modem if you don't have a separate
UPS for them), not your powered speakers, printer, scanner, electric can
opener, or coffee maker. Just connect the bare essentials to make the
computer usable.
kVA=W/(1000*PF)
kVA = kilovolt-amps, W = watts, PF = power factor
1.5 kVA = 800W / (1000 * PF)
or
PF = 800W / (1000 * 1.5kVA) = 0.53
Not fantastic for power factor but probably not that crappy considering
you're looking at consumer-grade equipment. The uptime is measured
based on maximum load. Are you really consuming 865 watts all the time
from your laptop? Do you really have all your computer gear connected
to the UPS running at peak amperage consumption, or is that printer
sitting dormant and your CPU usage less that 100% all the time during
the power outage?
Remember that you are talking about EIGHT HUNDRED SIXTY WATTS. If your
laptop consumed that much power, not only would you be impotent from
roasting your nuts but you would probably have 3rd degree burns on your
lap and fingertips. I doubt the AC adapter for your laptop can put out
more than 75W and under which you can fully use your laptop but which is
less than a tenth of the full-load capacity of the UPS.
--
DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)
"VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message
news5udncPNK-xQ1NbVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Skeleton Man" wrote in
> <news:dLidnQCIb5S-s9bVnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@wightman.ca>:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was looking at the APC website and spotted a 1500VA UPS for a little
>> over
>> $200 (CDN). I looked at the specs and I couldn't believe it.. full load
>> (800W I think) had a runtime of about 10 minutes!
>>
>> Who in the hell is going to fork out $200 to keep their PC on for 10
>> minutes
>> during a blackout ? I was expecting it to be like 60 - 90 minutes!
>>
>> Why can a laptop battery that's a fraction of the size last 3 - 5 hours,
>> yet
>> a UPS can only last a few minutes ? I wanted something to enable me to
>> continue working during a blackout - anywhere from 1 to 6 hours, but I'd
>> have to fork out like $10,000 for a big enough UPS. Uninteruptable Power
>> Supply is bull**** - when most of them are little more than a line
>> conditioner (and some don't even do that!).
>>
>> Are there better indoor solutions for this ? emphises on indoors.. you
>> can't run a diesel generator in your living room.
>>
>> Chris
>
> So is this APC 1500VA 860W UPS going to remain a secret that you only
> know which one you're talking about? I can guess that it might be the
> one at:
>
> http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...otal_watts=200
>
> but I'm not going to waste much time investigating an unidentified UPS.
>
> Every UPS has a maximum output current. They cannot supply more amps
> than that. So at that full load of maximum amps, you have 10 minutes of
> up time. This should be more than sufficient for their software client,
> probably running as an NT service, to gracefully shutdown your computer.
>
> So why would you buy a UPS whose maximum output amperage cannot sustain
> the amperage consumed by everything you intent to hook up to it?
> Obviously you will need a UPS with a higher current output (i.e., full
> load). But then why are you hooking every piece of computer gear to the
> UPS? Only the system unit and monitor should be hooked up to the UPS
> (and maybe the router and/or cable modem if you don't have a separate
> UPS for them), not your powered speakers, printer, scanner, electric can
> opener, or coffee maker. Just connect the bare essentials to make the
> computer usable.
>
> kVA=W/(1000*PF)
>
> kVA = kilovolt-amps, W = watts, PF = power factor
>
> 1.5 kVA = 800W / (1000 * PF)
> or
> PF = 800W / (1000 * 1.5kVA) = 0.53
>
> Not fantastic for power factor but probably not that crappy considering
> you're looking at consumer-grade equipment. The uptime is measured
> based on maximum load. Are you really consuming 865 watts all the time
> from your laptop? Do you really have all your computer gear connected
> to the UPS running at peak amperage consumption, or is that printer
> sitting dormant and your CPU usage less that 100% all the time during
> the power outage?
>
> Remember that you are talking about EIGHT HUNDRED SIXTY WATTS. If your
> laptop consumed that much power, not only would you be impotent from
> roasting your nuts but you would probably have 3rd degree burns on your
> lap and fingertips. I doubt the AC adapter for your laptop can put out
> more than 75W and under which you can fully use your laptop but which is
> less than a tenth of the full-load capacity of the UPS.
>Every UPS has a maximum output current. They cannot supply more amps
>than that. So at that full load of maximum amps, you have 10 minutes of
>up time. This should be more than sufficient for their software client,
>probably running as an NT service, to gracefully shutdown your computer.
I was thinking of it more as a secondary power supply than an emergengy
battery, etc.
>So why would you buy a UPS whose maximum output amperage cannot sustain
>the amperage consumed by everything you intent to hook up to it?
>Obviously you will need a UPS with a higher current output (i.e., full
>load). But then why are you hooking every piece of computer gear to the
>UPS? Only the system unit and monitor should be hooked up to the UPS
>(and maybe the router and/or cable modem if you don't have a separate
>UPS for them), not your powered speakers, printer, scanner, electric can
>opener, or coffee maker. Just connect the bare essentials to make the
>computer usable.
Really ? I was kind hoping to connect my laser printer, home theater and my
washing machine too.
I'm aware you don't hookup everything. All I plan on hooking up is the PC,
monitor, DSL modem and router. If money was no object then obviously I'd buy
the biggest one they make, but I was hoping to get a little more for like
$200 - $300. I would expect 10 minutes from like a $50 device.
>Not fantastic for power factor but probably not that crappy considering
>you're looking at consumer-grade equipment. The uptime is measured
>based on maximum load. Are you really consuming 865 watts all the time
>from your laptop? Do you really have all your computer gear connected
>to the UPS running at peak amperage consumption, or is that printer
>sitting dormant and your CPU usage less that 100% all the time during
>the power outage?
No I'm not consuming that from my laptop. I want the UPS for my desktop
anyway.
Assuming a ballpark power factor of 0.6 and a current draw of 2.0A
(according to my Kill-A-Water meter), I'm consuming around 144W between PC
and monitor (2.0A * 120V = 240VA * 0.6 = 144W)
The website says 13 mins at half load (432.5W) so if my calculations are
right, I should get about 40 minutes out of this model. It's a little better
than I thought but still not good (I hadn't measured current draw and
assumed PC would be like 8 - 10A on its own).
>Remember that you are talking about EIGHT HUNDRED SIXTY WATTS. If your
>laptop consumed that much power, not only would you be impotent from
>roasting your nuts but you would probably have 3rd degree burns on your
>lap and fingertips.
Obviously, I don't think I want the Jerry Lee Lewis effect lol
>Replace the regular battery in the UPS with a automobile or marine
>deep-cycle battery, preferrably a sealed one so nasty acid fumes won't
>slowly corrode your computer, furniture, carpet, etc. If you don't
>get a sealed battery, get a maintenance-free one (plates made only of
>lead-calcium alloy), not a low-maintenance one (at least some plates
>made of lead-antimony) because the latter won't charge like the
>original UPS battery.
What about the physical size ? Wouldn't they be too big to fit ? I like the
idea though.
Just a thought, but why not design all ATX supplies with a DC-12V in
connector and UPS's with a matching output ? Would it not be magnitudes more
effecient to run a DC-DC convertor than DC-AC-DC ?
Skeleton Man wrote:
>> So is this APC 1500VA 860W UPS going to remain a secret that you only
>> know which one you're talking about?
>
> This one:
> http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...otal_watts=200
>
>> Every UPS has a maximum output current. They cannot supply more amps
>> than that. So at that full load of maximum amps, you have 10 minutes of
>> up time. This should be more than sufficient for their software client,
>> probably running as an NT service, to gracefully shutdown your computer.
>
> I was thinking of it more as a secondary power supply than an emergengy
> battery, etc.
>
>> So why would you buy a UPS whose maximum output amperage cannot sustain
>> the amperage consumed by everything you intent to hook up to it?
>> Obviously you will need a UPS with a higher current output (i.e., full
>> load). But then why are you hooking every piece of computer gear to the
>> UPS? Only the system unit and monitor should be hooked up to the UPS
>> (and maybe the router and/or cable modem if you don't have a separate
>> UPS for them), not your powered speakers, printer, scanner, electric can
>> opener, or coffee maker. Just connect the bare essentials to make the
>> computer usable.
>
> Really ? I was kind hoping to connect my laser printer, home theater and my
> washing machine too.
>
> I'm aware you don't hookup everything. All I plan on hooking up is the PC,
> monitor, DSL modem and router. If money was no object then obviously I'd buy
> the biggest one they make, but I was hoping to get a little more for like
> $200 - $300. I would expect 10 minutes from like a $50 device.
>
>> Not fantastic for power factor but probably not that crappy considering
>> you're looking at consumer-grade equipment. The uptime is measured
>> based on maximum load. Are you really consuming 865 watts all the time
>>from your laptop? Do you really have all your computer gear connected
>> to the UPS running at peak amperage consumption, or is that printer
>> sitting dormant and your CPU usage less that 100% all the time during
>> the power outage?
>
> No I'm not consuming that from my laptop. I want the UPS for my desktop
> anyway.
>
> Assuming a ballpark power factor of 0.6 and a current draw of 2.0A
> (according to my Kill-A-Water meter), I'm consuming around 144W between PC
> and monitor (2.0A * 120V = 240VA * 0.6 = 144W)
>
> The website says 13 mins at half load (432.5W) so if my calculations are
> right, I should get about 40 minutes out of this model. It's a little better
> than I thought but still not good (I hadn't measured current draw and
> assumed PC would be like 8 - 10A on its own).
>
>> Remember that you are talking about EIGHT HUNDRED SIXTY WATTS. If your
>> laptop consumed that much power, not only would you be impotent from
>> roasting your nuts but you would probably have 3rd degree burns on your
>> lap and fingertips.
>
> Obviously, I don't think I want the Jerry Lee Lewis effect lol
>
> Chris
>
Runtime for BR1500 and BR1500 + optional BR24BP external battery, are here.
There is an efficiency curve here for BR1500. So the wasted
energy might not all be going into heat. It could be that
the UPS won't drain the battery complete, so some of the
watt-hours cannot be used.
The only thing wrong with it, is not all the reviewers on Newegg
had good luck with the BR1500. Some of the other APC products have
better reviews.
For a change of pace, here is an article from another part of the
world. Imagine trying to run lights, and a few fans, with a UPS, because
your electric utility has regular load shedding events. Even funnier,
almost ironic, is that a Chinese UPS is more expensive than a locally
made one.
>>Every UPS has a maximum output current. They cannot supply more amps
>>than that. So at that full load of maximum amps, you have 10 minutes of
>>up time. This should be more than sufficient for their software client,
>>probably running as an NT service, to gracefully shutdown your computer.
>
> I was thinking of it more as a secondary power supply than an emergengy
> battery, etc.
I don't follow you. A UPS is designed for data protection to prevent
loss or corruption from a power outage. It doesn't supplant the PSU
inside your desktop or laptop.
>>So why would you buy a UPS whose maximum output amperage cannot sustain
>>the amperage consumed by everything you intent to hook up to it?
>>Obviously you will need a UPS with a higher current output (i.e., full
>>load). But then why are you hooking every piece of computer gear to the
>>UPS? Only the system unit and monitor should be hooked up to the UPS
>>(and maybe the router and/or cable modem if you don't have a separate
>>UPS for them), not your powered speakers, printer, scanner, electric can
>>opener, or coffee maker. Just connect the bare essentials to make the
>>computer usable.
>
> Really ? I was kind hoping to connect my laser printer, home theater and my
> washing machine too.
You might be surprised at how many home users *do* attach a laser
printer to their UPS. During an outage, they try to print a document,
the laser comes out of standby, the element heats up, and maybe it gets
as far as starting to feed a sheet and then the UPS dies.
You might want to actually consider getting one UPS for your desktop and
a much smaller 350W UPS for the router and cable modem. Then when your
desktop's UPS runs out, you can still have Internet access for even
longer so you can switch to your laptop.
A UPS is designed to let you survive a power outage, not to outlive it.
During a power outage, you might consider using a separately defined
power profile that puts the hard disks into standby mode at much shorter
idle intervals and check if there is a low-power or lower gamma setting
for the monitor. Depending on your desktop's hardware, you might even
be able to put it into low-power mode where the CPU runs at something
less than 100% duty.
> I'm aware you don't hookup everything. All I plan on hooking up is the PC,
> monitor, DSL modem and router. If money was no object then obviously I'd buy
> the biggest one they make, but I was hoping to get a little more for like
> $200 - $300. I would expect 10 minutes from like a $50 device.
I've seen some UPS'es at newegg.com at 1500VA for $140. While
CyberPower doesn't command the reputation of APC, the consumer-grade
gear at APC isn't any better than CyberPower until you get into their
commercial- and industrial-grade gear (and then it's like paying for
medical equipment for just a modicum of extra quality or benefit).
When you compared your battery duration in a laptop, the comparison was
obviously irrelevant to the power consumption of a desktop. You
obviously know why your laptop batteries last so much longer. Have you
bothered to check on what those batteries cost if purchased separately?
Probably around $120 - and they won't give you anywhere around 3 to 4
hours of use if put under the same current draw as from your desktop.
> No I'm not consuming that from my laptop. I want the UPS for my desktop
> anyway.
>
> Assuming a ballpark power factor of 0.6 and a current draw of 2.0A
> (according to my Kill-A-Water meter), I'm consuming around 144W between PC
> and monitor (2.0A * 120V = 240VA * 0.6 = 144W)
>
> The website says 13 mins at half load (432.5W) so if my calculations are
> right, I should get about 40 minutes out of this model. It's a little better
> than I thought but still not good (I hadn't measured current draw and
> assumed PC would be like 8 - 10A on its own).
Probably more around 60 to 70 minutes. Your calculation was at
half-load. Depletion (or current output) isn't linear so full-load
would not be twice as long, more like probably 50% longer. I don't know
what PSU you have in your desktop. The ones I buy are usually in the
0.75 to 0.8 power factor range.
>>Remember that you are talking about EIGHT HUNDRED SIXTY WATTS. If your
>>laptop consumed that much power, not only would you be impotent from
>>roasting your nuts but you would probably have 3rd degree burns on your
>>lap and fingertips.
>
> Obviously, I don't think I want the Jerry Lee Lewis effect lol
But even at half-load of 433 watts, you definitely wouldn't want it in
your lap. Try wrapping your hand around a 100W light bulb and leave it
there.
"Skeleton Man" wrote in
<news:HJydndNPGsTO4NbVnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@wightman.ca >:
>>Replace the regular battery in the UPS with a automobile or marine
>>deep-cycle battery, preferrably a sealed one so nasty acid fumes won't
>>slowly corrode your computer, furniture, carpet, etc. If you don't
>>get a sealed battery, get a maintenance-free one (plates made only of
>>lead-calcium alloy), not a low-maintenance one (at least some plates
>>made of lead-antimony) because the latter won't charge like the
>>original UPS battery.
>
> What about the physical size ? Wouldn't they be too big to fit ? I like the
> idea though.
>
> Just a thought, but why not design all ATX supplies with a DC-12V in
> connector and UPS's with a matching output ? Would it not be magnitudes more
> effecient to run a DC-DC convertor than DC-AC-DC ?
>
> Chris
Computer power supplies are built to withstand surges that are either
not suppressed in uninterruptible power supplies (of which are actually
standby power supplies) or that the UPS couldn't withstand. While a UPS
may advertise that it includes surge protection, it is rarely more than
what you get in a power strip or even less. A UPS that separates input
and output sides using a 60-pound isolation transformer and generate a
60Hz sinusoidal output wave (which isn't really needed for a computer
PSU but is required if you use the output for other electronics due to
excessive heat in the input regulators on a square or stepped power
waveform) is very pricey.
What you purpose would simply move the PSU outside the computer case and
then add a backup backup to it. You forget that the 12V line inside
your computer must be regulated DOWN to that voltage. If you feed in 12
volts than you cannot regulated it to 12 volts. You could step it up to
then step it down to regulate it and convert back to DC but then you
obviate your suggestion. You would be relying on the regulation from
the UPS (AC to DC) and in effect simply combining your PSU into the UPS.
A decent PSU and equivalent UPS for the full-load of your computer would
be pretty pricey, especially the vast majority of consumers never get a
UPS for their computer. There are computer cases that will handle 2
PSUs within them and there are PSUs that include battery backup so the
whole power system with backup power is inside the case, and again very
pricey and only seeked by a much narrower consumer market. Also, if you
do consider getting a UPS that includes end-point surge protection, you
want the surge shunted as much as possible and as often as possible
outside the computer case, not inside it.
On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 02:33:56 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
<invalid@guestwho.com> wrote:
>>Replace the regular battery in the UPS with a automobile or marine
>>deep-cycle battery, preferrably a sealed one so nasty acid fumes won't
>>slowly corrode your computer, furniture, carpet, etc. If you don't
>>get a sealed battery, get a maintenance-free one (plates made only of
>>lead-calcium alloy), not a low-maintenance one (at least some plates
>>made of lead-antimony) because the latter won't charge like the
>>original UPS battery.
>
>What about the physical size ? Wouldn't they be too big to fit ? I like the
>idea though.
Yes it's too large to fit in original case, and you'd have
to monitor heat levels, some UPS designs are based on a
closed system where heat limits are based on what the
original battery plus circuit could cause.
>
>Just a thought, but why not design all ATX supplies with a DC-12V in
>connector and UPS's with a matching output ? Would it not be magnitudes more
>effecient to run a DC-DC convertor than DC-AC-DC ?
12V in would still have to be regulated. Better 13V or more
in, but it would increase costs of a PSU a lot. A total
solution incorporating an UPS could cost less if it were a
mass produced, mass adopted product but it isn't. It might
be more efficient, actually it definitely would be to run
DC-DC, but efficiency is not a primary priority in
marketing, rather capacity per dollar is.
UPS 
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