It has been a long time since I did any real hardware study, but a
few things mentioned sounded iffy. Please verify.
* This motherboard supports up to 8GB 64-bit.
1. It cannot run 32-bit memory.
2. It will only work in a 64-bit system.
3. If used in a 32-bit environment, a limitation of Windows is that
it will only recognize 3.5GB of RAM.
* This motherboard can run a "3-way SLI" option.
1. Windows OS does not support 3 graphic cards in any array (or
fashion).
Which of course begs the question, how the hell can they sell it?
2. *IF* you run the "3-way SLI" option, then 2 PCI slots are
completely blocked, hence, rendered useless.
Seriously?
That about wraps it up. Thanks!
--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
-Lost wrote:
> Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
> EdpNo=3523225&CatId=1533
>
> It has been a long time since I did any real hardware study, but a
> few things mentioned sounded iffy. Please verify.
>
> * This motherboard supports up to 8GB 64-bit.
>
> 1. It cannot run 32-bit memory.
> 2. It will only work in a 64-bit system.
> 3. If used in a 32-bit environment, a limitation of Windows is that
> it will only recognize 3.5GB of RAM.
>
> * This motherboard can run a "3-way SLI" option.
>
> 1. Windows OS does not support 3 graphic cards in any array (or
> fashion).
>
> Which of course begs the question, how the hell can they sell it?
>
> 2. *IF* you run the "3-way SLI" option, then 2 PCI slots are
> completely blocked, hence, rendered useless.
>
> Seriously?
>
> That about wraps it up. Thanks!
>
> This motherboard supports up to 8GB 64-bit.
If the processor used, supports EM64T, it has support for both
32 and 64 bit OSes. That means when it manipulates addresses,
while a 64 bit OS is running, the addresses can occupy more bits.
If I look at a recent Intel chipset, and look at the FSB interface,
the FSB has FSB_AB_[35:3] for an address bus, and FSB_DB_[63:0] for
the data bus. In terms of addressing bytes, the address bus implies
35:0 or an effective 36 bit connection to the processor. 32 bits is
a 4GB space, so 36 bits would be a 64GB space. In this case, what we
really need, is 8GB plus room for some PCI Express and PCI bus decodes.
Probably 16GB would effectively cover this, without causing the memory to
be wasted. (The reason FSB_AB_[2:0] aren't needed, is because the
FSB data bus is eight bytes wide.)
PDF page 35, has a picture showing an address map usable by a 64 bit OS.
When a 32 bit OS is running, addresses are stored in a 32 bit
variable. Available addresses stretch from 0 to 4GB. Out of this,
three SLI video cards of 512MB each, would eat up 1.5GB of address space,
leaving 2.5GB of addresses to work with the memory. If the user installed
3GB or 4GB of memory, a portion of the memory is unreachable (cannot be
addressed).
To make an analogy, say a developer builds a new subdivision, without
city approval. The houses exist, but unless the streets have names
and numbers, the Post Office cannot deliver mail. It is the same
situation when you have too much junk to be addressed by a limited
4GB space. Some of the homes don't have addresses. The homes
still physically exist, but no one can find them, because
they're not on the map and the Post Office doesn't know they
exist. If you go to Fedex, and try to deliver a parcel to one
of them, the Fedex guy comes back and says he can't find it.
If you're using a 32 bit OS, then there are definitely going to
be limits on the address space. I think Win2003 server is an
exception, in that it may support 4GB of memory, but for the
other 32 bit OSes, even if you aren't too wasteful with
bus address space, you'd be lucky to be able to use 3.5GB
of 4GB of memory that was installed. Once you install PCI Express
video cards, each one with a fat onboard memory, the address space
remaining to address system memory, is getting kinda cramped.
*******
SLI or Crossfire, support various mechanisms for harnessing the
power of GPUs. With both schemes, only one monitor can be driven
(currently), while SLI or Crossfire mode is enabled. If you had
three way SLI, each card might work on 1/3rd of the screen, and
two of the cards dump their portion of the image, into the third card,
and from there, it drives a single monitor connector.
If SLI or Crossfire is disabled, and the cards are operated
independently of one another, then it is up to the limits of
that OS, as to how many screens can operate at one time.
The one monitor limit may be overcome some day, but probably only
when a lot of GPUs are available.
*******
Sure, if you install a lot of video cards, there is precious
little physical room left for anything else. Nobody said you had to
do it that way. They also make cards, with two GPUs housed inside
the same module.
GPU_1 GPU_2
| |
| |
+---- PCI_Express ----+
Switch_Chip
|
|
To PCI Express x16
video card slot
I'm not saying to run off an buy one. Just demonstrating that
there are yet more choices to make.
I understand that some switching chip has room to connect to
four GPUs, so this scheme may be made bigger in the future.
If there is a perceived market for it, of course. The thing
is, GPUs cannot be made much larger individually, and yield well
at the silicon fab, which is why both companies have used the dual
GPU approach to try to outdo one another. It is a cheap way to
try to take the performance crown.
At some point, the design of GPUs will have to be partitioned
into multiple chips, and then it is an issue of how best to
package it, and still get some performance boost by doing so.
The Tigerdirect guy gave you some examples of extreme things
you could do with the motherboard, but a lot of people don't have
deep enough pockets to buy all the junk needed.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:30:29 -0500, "-Lost"
<maventheextrawords@techie.com> wrote:
>Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
>
>http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
>EdpNo=3523225&CatId=1533
>
>It has been a long time since I did any real hardware study, but a
>few things mentioned sounded iffy. Please verify.
>
>* This motherboard supports up to 8GB 64-bit.
yes
>
>1. It cannot run 32-bit memory.
It can run standard DDR2 memory. The speed of DDR2 you'd
select depends on how fast you want to run the memory bus.
Modern boards support asynchronous memory ratios so to a
certain extent, memory spec'd to be faster for only a minor
increase in price could be a fair option.
>2. It will only work in a 64-bit system.
To support over 4GB address space, you would require a 64bit
OS.
>3. If used in a 32-bit environment, a limitation of Windows is that
>it will only recognize 3.5GB of RAM.
Yes, some of the 4GB a 32bit OS allows is reserved for other
things so you would have roughly 3.5GB, give or take a
couple hundred MB or so, remaining. Given that today's
memory prices for DDR2 are very good, it won't be much of a
loss if you need 32bit OS and choose to install 4GB of
memory and end up loosing half a gig to this issue.
>
>* This motherboard can run a "3-way SLI" option.
>
>1. Windows OS does not support 3 graphic cards in any array (or
>fashion).
The video card driver will handle that, but I can't tell you
how polished nVidia's drivers are to support it at this
present time.
>
>Which of course begs the question, how the hell can they sell it?
They can sell what a product "supports" if a failure for it
to do what they advertise is not due to their fault. What
if Microsoft suddenly decided "no more support for any PCI
video cards". If a motherboard manufacturer advertised the
board can run a PCI video card, it would be true even if
some 3rd party doesn't want to support that. However, in
this case you don't have to be concerned about that, just
timing of good drivers, but do you really need a 3-way SLI?
It seems not very likely, by the time games need it you
might as well have put the cash you saved into a bank and
used it to buy a new video card again when that day comes.
>
>2. *IF* you run the "3-way SLI" option, then 2 PCI slots are
>completely blocked, hence, rendered useless.
Yes if they are cards with double-height heatsinks. Not
much they can do about that, unless you wanted them to not
put the 2 pci slots on there at all so they wouldn't get
blocked. The board can't be taller else isn't not ATX
anymore, and if it were wider and lots of other areas were
rearranged like you might find on some server boards so that
the northbridge were moved away enough to squeeze another
PCI slot in there, that too might cause a fair amount of
connector, card, heatsink, etc compability issues with some
cases. IMO, without a lot more work they might've been able
to squeeze a 2x PCIe at the very top, but getting something
so close to the northbridge then creates issues cooling it
passively, or more noise and reliablity concerns if a fan
were added.
IMO, consider it a board for 2-way SLI, with a bonus 16X
PCIe slot at the bottom you can use for something besides a
video card (like a gaming sound card).
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
Response to Paul <nospam@needed.com>:
<snip>
Sheesh! Where do I start? You know your stuff, Paul.
Thanks!
> If the processor used, supports EM64T, it has support for both
> 32 and 64 bit OSes. That means when it manipulates addresses,
> while a 64 bit OS is running, the addresses can occupy more bits.
>
> http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLA9U
I'm thinking the second CPU with more cache and two cores. Although
to be honest I do not know how less cycles and slower front-side bus
plays into that.
> If I look at a recent Intel chipset, and look at the FSB
> interface, the FSB has FSB_AB_[35:3] for an address bus, and
> FSB_DB_[63:0] for the data bus.
<snip>
Great analogy, crystal clear.
I guess it was horror stories (that I don't even recall) that had me
leery of a 64-bit Windows.
Probably something about 32-bit applications misfiring, crashing, or
being slower than if they were ran in a 32-bit environment.
> SLI or Crossfire, support various mechanisms for harnessing the
> power of GPUs. With both schemes, only one monitor can be driven
> (currently), while SLI or Crossfire mode is enabled. If you had
> three way SLI, each card might work on 1/3rd of the screen, and
> two of the cards dump their portion of the image, into the third
> card, and from there, it drives a single monitor connector.
>
> If SLI or Crossfire is disabled, and the cards are operated
> independently of one another, then it is up to the limits of
> that OS, as to how many screens can operate at one time.
>
> http://www.realtimesoft.com/multimon...sp?ID=907&date
> =desc&nummon=false&mon=desc
>
> The one monitor limit may be overcome some day, but probably only
> when a lot of GPUs are available.
Seems like this would probably be a better option then -- assuming
I'll just run with a 64-bit OS.
I surely cannot afford the 3-way SLI running a monstrously huge
display. Plus the expense of losing those other slots.
But this one could take a nice card now, another one in the future
without sacrificing slots. It's not like I'm gaming. Right?
In addition, it might make more sense to snag that Quad Core CPU from
above with this Asus board. I could also afford to dump more RAM
into it at that point.
Hrmm...
<snip>
> The Tigerdirect guy gave you some examples of extreme things
> you could do with the motherboard, but a lot of people don't have
> deep enough pockets to buy all the junk needed.
That'd be me. I'm in the, "I want to build a shhhweet system, but
not at the cost of my children's education." boat.
Many thanks, Paul. You've been most informative already.
--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
Response to kony <spam@spam.com>:
Thanks for responding, kony.
>>3. If used in a 32-bit environment, a limitation of Windows is
>>that it will only recognize 3.5GB of RAM.
>
> Yes, some of the 4GB a 32bit OS allows is reserved for other
> things so you would have roughly 3.5GB, give or take a
> couple hundred MB or so, remaining. Given that today's
> memory prices for DDR2 are very good, it won't be much of a
> loss if you need 32bit OS and choose to install 4GB of
> memory and end up loosing half a gig to this issue.
Yeah Paul cleared that up a bit.
And good point, it wouldn't be that great of a loss considering.
Although now I'm seriously debating a 64-bit system.
Like I mentioned to Paul though, anything beyond 32-bit, single-core
systems is a muddy lens for me.
> However, in
> this case you don't have to be concerned about that, just
> timing of good drivers, but do you really need a 3-way SLI?
> It seems not very likely, by the time games need it you
> might as well have put the cash you saved into a bank and
> used it to buy a new video card again when that day comes.
I didn't really think I had the need for it either, but I was
thinking of the future... a time where my pockets bulged much larger
than they do now. Ah, to dream. ; )
But yeah, I'm a Photoshop, Maya, and video enthusiast, so a 3-way SLI
would be silly -- at least at this point.
> IMO, consider it a board for 2-way SLI, with a bonus 16X
> PCIe slot at the bottom you can use for something besides a
> video card (like a gaming sound card).
Definitely! I'm going to have weigh the option of the Asus board
found here, now though.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
-Lost wrote:
> Response to Paul <nospam@needed.com>:
>
> <snip>
>
> Sheesh! Where do I start? You know your stuff, Paul.
>
> Thanks!
>
>> If the processor used, supports EM64T, it has support for both
>> 32 and 64 bit OSes. That means when it manipulates addresses,
>> while a 64 bit OS is running, the addresses can occupy more bits.
>>
>> http://processorfinder.intel.com/det...px?sSpec=SLA9U
>
> Cool, so both:
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
> EdpNo=3574211&Sku=CP1-DUO-E8400
>
> ...and...
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
> EdpNo=3591372&Sku=CP2-DUO-Q6700
>
> I'm thinking the second CPU with more cache and two cores. Although
> to be honest I do not know how less cycles and slower front-side bus
> plays into that.
>
>> If I look at a recent Intel chipset, and look at the FSB
>> interface, the FSB has FSB_AB_[35:3] for an address bus, and
>> FSB_DB_[63:0] for the data bus.
> <snip>
>
> Great analogy, crystal clear.
>
> I guess it was horror stories (that I don't even recall) that had me
> leery of a 64-bit Windows.
>
> Probably something about 32-bit applications misfiring, crashing, or
> being slower than if they were ran in a 32-bit environment.
>
>> SLI or Crossfire, support various mechanisms for harnessing the
>> power of GPUs. With both schemes, only one monitor can be driven
>> (currently), while SLI or Crossfire mode is enabled. If you had
>> three way SLI, each card might work on 1/3rd of the screen, and
>> two of the cards dump their portion of the image, into the third
>> card, and from there, it drives a single monitor connector.
>>
>> If SLI or Crossfire is disabled, and the cards are operated
>> independently of one another, then it is up to the limits of
>> that OS, as to how many screens can operate at one time.
>>
>> http://www.realtimesoft.com/multimon...sp?ID=907&date
>> =desc&nummon=false&mon=desc
>>
>> The one monitor limit may be overcome some day, but probably only
>> when a lot of GPUs are available.
>
> Seems like this would probably be a better option then -- assuming
> I'll just run with a 64-bit OS.
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
> EdpNo=3109410&CatId=3355
>
> I surely cannot afford the 3-way SLI running a monstrously huge
> display. Plus the expense of losing those other slots.
>
> But this one could take a nice card now, another one in the future
> without sacrificing slots. It's not like I'm gaming. Right?
>
> In addition, it might make more sense to snag that Quad Core CPU from
> above with this Asus board. I could also afford to dump more RAM
> into it at that point.
>
> Hrmm...
>
> <snip>
>
>> The Tigerdirect guy gave you some examples of extreme things
>> you could do with the motherboard, but a lot of people don't have
>> deep enough pockets to buy all the junk needed.
>
> That'd be me. I'm in the, "I want to build a shhhweet system, but
> not at the cost of my children's education." boat.
>
> Many thanks, Paul. You've been most informative already.
>
Have a look around for some 32 bit versus 64 bit benchmarks. This
one is old, but shows promise.
As for dual versus quad, I didn't answer that one, because I was
having trouble finding some good articles with Task Manager graphs.
For gaming, currently there are cases where core usage is asymmetric,
and one core is heavily loaded, while the others are not.
Multimedia applications can do better in that regard. Photoshop has been
multithreaded for years, and even used to run on DSP accelerator cards
(separate from the main processor). But the thing is, filters on Photoshop
are divided, into filters that are single threaded only, and filters
that are multithreaded. If you're using Photoshop interactively, and
it used to take 0.3 seconds for an operation to finish, and now it
takes 0.1 seconds, that might not make a big difference to how much
stuff you can get done in one day. If you batch process things, taking
the human out of the loop, that might yield more impressive gains.
The companies that write the applications, could do a lot to help
people select hardware to use with them. They don't seem to get it,
that people need a way of determining what to buy. So knowing how
many threads a program will start, would be useful info.
In terms of the effects of FSB, in one benchmark I was looking at,
the Intel quad pumped FSB caused the quad to offer a 3.5x speedup
in a benchmark. By comparison, the AMD Phenom (quad), with integrated
memory controller, managed to get the full 4x speedup with four cores.
The Intel FSB does have a small impact on performance, but Intel
compensates for this, with their overall faster computing cores.
If you're used to some lesser system, I think you'll be suitably
impressed with one of the Core2 processors.
By the way, be careful when shopping for processors, to note the
difference between "OEM" and "retail boxed" versions. Retail boxed
generally means a heatsink/fan comes with the product. OEM ones
don't come with a heatsink fan. AMD "black edition" processors,
which are multiplier unlocked, don't come with a heatsink/fan either
(presumably because, since the user is expected to overclock, the
user is probably buying a $50 chunk of copper cooler to go with it).
So if you see OEM and a slightly lower price, better price the
heatsink/fan you'll need to add to use with it.
Personally, I like third party coolers, since it gives me a chance to
buy a product with better fasteners. On my current computer, the
cooler is held in place with screws, and the screws can be adjusted
for just the right amount of pressure to hold the cooler in place.
You can always buy the retail version of processor, and then decide
for yourself, whether you like the cooler that came with it or not.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
-Lost wrote:
>
> Definitely! I'm going to have weigh the option of the Asus board
> found here, now though.
>
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...m-details.asp?
> EdpNo=3109410&CatId=3355
>
> I mentioned it in my reply to Paul with an OEM CPU that might make
> for a faster system?
>
> Again, thanks for the reply, kony.
>
For the Asus boards, there are two ways to get comments on them.
For that particular board, it has x16 wiring for one video slot, and
x4 wiring for the other. The physical size of slots is x16, so larger
cards can still be fitted. The x4 wired slot can be a good fit for
things like a high end RAID card, or something that pushes a decent
amount of data.
To see the impact of PCI Express bandwidth on video performance, there
is an old Tomshardware article. They use tape on some of the video
card pins, to change the number of lanes used to carry PCI Express
packets.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
"-Lost" <maventheextrawords@techie.com> wrote in
news:Xns9ABB2C32FD698lostthreads@216.196.97.136:
> And good point, it wouldn't be that great of a loss considering.
> Although now I'm seriously debating a 64-bit system.
>
> Like I mentioned to Paul though, anything beyond 32-bit, single-core
> systems is a muddy lens for me.
-Lost,
Another consideration that you need to be aware of is that a Windows 64
bit OS does not support 16 bit applications. This may not be a problem
for you and even if it is there is probably an acceptable substitute out
there.
I have run both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Vista Ultimate and the 64
bit version of XP Pro. I am currently running 64 bit Vista Ultimate and
am quite happy with it (I have 4 x 1 GB of Dual Channel SDRAM). By the
way, if you have/purchase the Ultimate version of Vista you get both the
32 and 64 bit DVDs. You can only have one installed at a time, but at
least you have the option to move back to 32 bit if you are unhappy with
64 bit. For the other versions, everything *except* the OEM version, the
64 bit DVDs can be ordered at minimal cost.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
Response to Pecos <anortRemOveThIs&2on2@phreego.net>:
Thanks for the response, Pecos.
> Another consideration that you need to be aware of is that a
> Windows 64 bit OS does not support 16 bit applications. This may
> not be a problem for you and even if it is there is probably an
> acceptable substitute out there.
Nah, I have older boxes for that if that's the case.
Thanks for mentioning that though! I was not aware.
> I have run both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Vista Ultimate and
> the 64 bit version of XP Pro. I am currently running 64 bit Vista
> Ultimate and am quite happy with it (I have 4 x 1 GB of Dual
> Channel SDRAM). By the way, if you have/purchase the Ultimate
> version of Vista you get both the 32 and 64 bit DVDs. You can
> only have one installed at a time, but at least you have the
> option to move back to 32 bit if you are unhappy with 64 bit. For
> the other versions, everything *except* the OEM version, the 64
> bit DVDs can be ordered at minimal cost.
Although my only experience of Vista is a friend's laptop and Best
Buy after hours, I am seriously not impressed with Vista.
I turn all the graphical junk off anyway (I prefer more speed). I
hear its security isn't putting XP's to shame, so... I'll probably
stick with XP a while yet.
Thanks for the suggestions!
--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
Re: Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo.
"-Lost" <maventheextrawords@techie.com> wrote in
news:Xns9ABD4EA926EDlostthreads@216.196.97.136:
> Response to Pecos <anortRemOveThIs&2on2@phreego.net>:
>
> Thanks for the response, Pecos.
>
>> Another consideration that you need to be aware of is that a
>> Windows 64 bit OS does not support 16 bit applications. This may
>> not be a problem for you and even if it is there is probably an
>> acceptable substitute out there.
>
> Nah, I have older boxes for that if that's the case.
>
> Thanks for mentioning that though! I was not aware.
>
>> I have run both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Vista Ultimate and
>> the 64 bit version of XP Pro. I am currently running 64 bit Vista
>> Ultimate and am quite happy with it (I have 4 x 1 GB of Dual
>> Channel SDRAM). By the way, if you have/purchase the Ultimate
>> version of Vista you get both the 32 and 64 bit DVDs. You can
>> only have one installed at a time, but at least you have the
>> option to move back to 32 bit if you are unhappy with 64 bit. For
>> the other versions, everything *except* the OEM version, the 64
>> bit DVDs can be ordered at minimal cost.
>
> Although my only experience of Vista is a friend's laptop and Best
> Buy after hours, I am seriously not impressed with Vista.
>
> I turn all the graphical junk off anyway (I prefer more speed). I
> hear its security isn't putting XP's to shame, so... I'll probably
> stick with XP a while yet.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions!
>
In that case you might want to check out the free XP 64 bit 120 day
trial:
Please clarify what a TigerDirect sales rep said about a mobo. 
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