Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
my 3-year old desktop.
If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
(connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
switched on permanently)
--
Maurice (Retired in Surrey, UK) www.maurice99.ukfsn.org
(Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
Maurice Batey wrote:
> Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
> my 3-year old desktop.
>
> If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
alt.comp.hardware is a good choice.
> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
> switched on permanently)
I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
conflict with the first.
At any rate, it sounds like you might have a heat problem. I would
recommend:
1) Carefully clean the dust out of your system, especially from the
processor heat sink, graphics card, fans and vents.
2) Reduce your system to the simplest functional state. Disconnect
extra hard drives, pull unnecessary cards (like the network card you
mention), and disconnect all USB devices (with the exception of your
mouse and keyboard.)
3) Place the PC in an area with adequate ventilation -- don't leave it
jammed under a desk. Open up the case and train a fan, on a moderate to
strong setting, on the PC's interior.
If your system becomes stable, start adding bits back in. Make sure you
test for long enough to see if the problem has returned. This practice
may isolate a component that is causing you your problem.
>> (Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold
>> power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
>> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the
>> BIOS
>> password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use
>> broadband
>> (connected to router by ethernet cable). Tried replacing use of Realtek
>> ethernet
>> controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>> switched on permanently)
I would suspect a faulty PSU, or failing capacitors on your mainboard.
Yep this is a good place to post, I doubt if it's caused by going over to broad band... happens when cold could suggest a power supply fault.
As a test why not run it without the Ethernet card or modem this ought point you in the right direction, a good clue may be had by going immediately into bios and take a note of the voltages and temperatures for five minutes or so... they should not be lower than about 700mV (0.7V) as stated in the bios screen, mind you you can still have problems with the power supply even if the voltages appeared to be alright.
All you need for bios POST (Power On Self Test) or bios boot is just the CPU, Graphic card and RAM inserted with just these you'll be able to boot the bios and access the set up screen... so it could be any of these as well, sometimes re-inserting the RAM and graphic card cures many a fault but I would be surprised if these was the problem.
I have had funny things happen when the bios back up battery starts to get low so may be it's well to bear this in mind, the battery usually starts going down hill after about 3 or 4 years.
Note
If you remove this battery for more than about 2 minutes you'll have to re-set the bios settings, there's usually a 'quick set' button to avoid this... better leaving this as a very last option.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:27:26 +0100, Maurice Batey
<maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote:
>Looking for a good newsgroup to help me diagnose a weird hardware problem with
>my 3-year old desktop.
>
>If this is not it, could someone recommend one, please?
>
>(Inconsistent symptoms, but machine always locks up within 4 minutes of cold
>power up, regardless of which operating system is being booted.
> In fact, on one occasion it locked up in the middle of entering the BIOS
>password. Commencement of problem coincided with starting to use broadband
>(connected to router by ethernet cable).
>Tried replacing use of Realtek ethernet
>controller with Intel Gigabit PCI ethernet card. No problem if keep PC
>switched on permanently)
Does this mean that the problem exhibited, changed somewhat
after swapping in a different ethernet card?
As Grinder pointed out, you either don't have it lock up
within 4 minutes or it does have problems if it's switched
on permanently, unless by switched on you mean the main AC
power to the PSU, instead of the whole system being fully
turned on.
Since the problem seems to be so repeatable, pull out the
ethernet card (while AC power is unplugged of course).
It would be good to get a concise but complete description
of all major components, including the motherboard make,
model, wattage, and it's rated current on 12V rail.
Open the case if you hadn't already and look for the
possibility of dislodged cables, cards, connectors, etc.
Check for vented capacitors.
Check the PSU voltages, with a multimeter if you have one,
otherwise at least in the bios hardware/health monitor page.
Boot, run memtest86+ for a few hours (overnight is ideal).
If there are errors, no point in looking elsewhere until
these errors are addressed (next focus on things more likely
to cause memory errors).
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
> conflict with the first.
Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.
(The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
years.)
From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
the (empty) floppy disk drive).
Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.
For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
business!)
Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.
So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
other gear powered off (including router).
It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
(apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
get out).
After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!
The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
system then runs perfectly - for days.
So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
(The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
PC details:
Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
--
Maurice
(Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
Maurice Batey wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>
>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>> conflict with the first.
>
> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup problem.
>
> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over 2
> years.)
>
> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre when
> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to access
> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>
> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5 in
> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI card.
>
> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day I
> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted. (Fortuitously I
> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon back in
> business!)
>
> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of overheating.
>
> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with all
> other gear powered off (including router).
>
> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
>
> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in the PC
> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could not
> get out).
>
> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI card!
>
> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting, the
> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>
> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>
> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>
> PC details:
>
> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>
> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>
When you say you couldn't remove the main connector - there is a
nylon latch on the body of the connector. You have to depress
the latch, so that you can pull up on the connector.
If, after depressing the latch, the connector will not move,
the two parts could be welded together. That could happen as a
result of something melting, corroding, or deforming at the
connector. If that were the case, the problem could be weak
power, due to the connector being damaged.
"Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
newsan.2007.08.29.15.17.14.78894@bcs.removethis. org.uk...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>
>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>> conflict with the first.
>
> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup
> problem.
>
> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over
> 2
> years.)
>
> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre
> when
> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to
> access
> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>
> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making 5
> in
> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI
> card.
>
> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd day
> I
> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted.
> (Fortuitously I
> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon
> back in
> business!)
>
> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of
> overheating.
>
> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with
> all
> other gear powered off (including router).
>
> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of lockup.
>
> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in
> the PC
> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply could
> not
> get out).
>
> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP, Kubuntu,
> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI
> card!
>
> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on rebooting,
> the
> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>
> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>
> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>
> PC details:
>
> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>
> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>
> --
> Maurice
> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>
This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
and in your case anything that might be connected to,
wake on LAN, or such.
"Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u6adnaAQLJhFNkjbnZ2dnUVZ_rCtnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
> "Maurice Batey" <maurice@bcs.removethis.org.uk> wrote in message
> newsan.2007.08.29.15.17.14.78894@bcs.removethis. org.uk...
>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:45:13 +0000, Grinder wrote:
>>
>>> I've having trouble reconciling "always locks up within 4 minutes of
>>> cold power up" and "no problem if keep PC switch on permanently."
>>> Perhaps you can elaborate on the second statement, as it seems to
>>> conflict with the first.
>>
>> Prior to starting to use broadband on July 25th there was no lockup
>> problem.
>>
>> (The Realtek ethernet Gigabit controller had been BIOS disabled for over
>> 2
>> years.)
>>
>> From Day 1 of using broadband (i.e. ethernet controller enabled) the PC
>> locked up, in a quite variable way and in various situations (the most
>> surprising being during entry of the BIOS password, and the most bizarre
>> when
>> the screen blanked out, and the only action was continual attempts to
>> access
>> the (empty) floppy disk drive).
>>
>> Suspicion naturally fell on the ethernet controller (BIOS chip), so I
>> disabled it; no lockups occurred.. SO - putting 2 and 2 together (making
>> 5 in
>> this case...) I kept it disabled and added an Intel Gigabit ethernet PCI
>> card.
>>
>> For 2 days (powering down overnight) I had no lockups, but on the 3rd
>> day I
>> had it in spades, resulting in my Linux kernel being corrupted.
>> (Fortuitously I
>> had taken a complete disk image backup the evening before, so was soon
>> back in
>> business!)
>>
>> Because the lockups always occurred within 5 minutes of cold power up, I
>> assumed there was some kind of cold-start problem - the opposite of
>> overheating.
>>
>> So I left the m/c running WinXP when not in use (e.g. overnight), with
>> all
>> other gear powered off (including router).
>>
>> It has now been continusously running for 6 days, wuth no sign of
>> lockup.
>>
>> It having been suggested by a friend (and having powered the PC down
>> overnight) today I unplugged and replugged all the power connections in
>> the PC
>> (apart from the big one plugged into the motherboard, which I simply
>> could not
>> get out).
>>
>> After powering up from cold it has been running normally (WinXP,
>> Kubuntu,
>> Mandriva) - but then it did for 2 days after installing the ethernet PCI
>> card!
>>
>> The strange thing about the cold power-up lockups is that - on
>> rebooting, the
>> system then runs perfectly - for days.
>>
>> So I don't see how it can be an overheating or battery problem.
>>
>> (The variable symptoms remind me of buffer overruns in the old days.)
>>
>> PC details:
>>
>> Intel Pentium 4.3Ghz with twin 120Gb Maxtor IDE drives
>> Intel 865PE chipset motherboard with dual-channel DDR
>> 1 GB ultra fast DDR RAM
>> Radeon 9600 128Mb VGA/DVI-I/TV-out
>>
>> Many thanks for various responses - much appreciated...
>>
>> --
>> Maurice
>> (Remove 'removethis.' to reply by email)
>>
>
> This may be a long shot, but try cleaning up any startup
> related software/OS drivers. Especially keyboard related,
> and in your case anything that might be connected to,
> wake on LAN, or such.
>
> Luck;
> Ken
>
P.S. Try replacing your keyboard, if you have another on
hand; especially if you are using a keyboard with a lot of
added function keys. ( I know, it sounds odd; but I have
one system that had very similar odd power up problems
and after much hair loss it seems to have been keyboard
related.)
Hardware problem 
an.2007.08.29.15.17.14.78894@bcs.removethis. org.uk...
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