On Sep 17, 7:00 pm, "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk"
<jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> how's this onehttp://www.cybermarket.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr5841.html
>
> should I look for a particular make? or to avoid a particular make ?
>
> there's one here i'm looking at, currently on ebay. It's more
> expensivehttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Power-Multi-Plug-Index-6-Socket-Surge-Prote...
Does it cite each type of surge and list numbers for protection from
each type? No it does not even claim to provide protection. Take a
£2 power strip. Add some 10 pence parts. Sell it for how much? Look
at its numbers. Minimal protectors start at 50,000 amps. And finally
is that little power strip going to stop what three miles of sky could
not? A real world protector does not stop surges like a dam stopping
a flood. Real world protectors, instead, divert surges downriver like
a dike. IOW effective protectors divert a surge to earth before it
can even enter the building. One protector does for everything at
about £1 per protected appliance. Not only does that protector not
even claim to protect. It may also create these scary pictures: http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
Does that protector even claim protection? Instead, it has a
history of sometimes earthing surges destructively through the
adjacent computer. But then we have another and the most obvious
reason why it does not even claim to protect. Where is the dedicated
connection to the building earth ground rod? Where does the
manufacturer discuss earthing? No earth ground means no effective
protection.
But look at that profit margin. With profit margins that high, why
would they be honest? Well they do admit to being rated for a paltry
9000 amps. And forget to mention that the actual number is probably
only 3000 or 6000 amps. So why is it so grossly overpriced?
The short answer is yes, it matters what you get if you are
serious about surge protection instead of just buying a
multi-oultlet strip.
A whole residence surge protector with a short earth ground
is the primary protection. Next, add multi-outlet strips,
ignoring that they claim to provide surge protection, if you
need multiple outlet extensions.
Take your pick, you can't adequately protect against surges
buying the cheapest product(s), BUT if what you buy has
some insurance guarantee attached, and that seller has
demonstrated though payment that it is a real insurance,
that is what you are paying for in this class of equipment.
On 18 Sep, 06:48, kony <s...@spam.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:00:18 -0700,
> "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk" <jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >how's this one
> >http://www.cybermarket.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr5841.html
>
> >should I look for a particular make? or to avoid a particular make ?
>
> >there's one here i'm looking at, currently on ebay. It's more
> >expensive
> >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Power-Mult...et-Surge-Prote...
>
> >does it matter which i get ?
>
> The short answer is yes, it matters what you get if you are
> serious about surge protection instead of just buying a
> multi-oultlet strip.
>
> A whole residence surge protector with a short earth ground
> is the primary protection. Next, add multi-outlet strips,
> ignoring that they claim to provide surge protection, if you
> need multiple outlet extensions.
>
> Take your pick, you can't adequately protect against surges
> buying the cheapest product(s), BUT if what you buy has
> some insurance guarantee attached, and that seller has
> demonstrated though payment that it is a real insurance,
> that is what you are paying for in this class of equipment.
I like the idea of a dedicated surge protector and plugging a multi
plug/outlet into it.
it's for a home with a few computers. Less than 1000 pounds worth of
equipment.
I don't want to spend more than 100 pounds on this surge protector.
w_tom wrote:
> On Sep 17, 7:00 pm, "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk"
> <jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> how's this onehttp://www.cybermarket.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr5841.html
Has no ratings. You don’t know what you are getting.
>>
>> should I look for a particular make? or to avoid a particular make ?
>>
>> there's one here i'm looking at, currently on ebay. It's more
>> expensivehttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Power-Multi-Plug-Index-6-Socket-Surge-Prote...
Has ratings and ports for phone and antenna.
There is no brand name on either unit. I would only buy a known brand
name like Belkin
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. Both are written for the US,
but the principles are the same for the UK.
> Look
> at its numbers. Minimal protectors start at 50,000 amps. And finally
> is that little power strip going to stop what three miles of sky could
> not?
Plug–in suppressors work by clamping, not stopping. 50,000A might be
useful for a service panel suppressor, although US and UK standards
place the maximum probable surge at 10,000A. The current to a plug-in
suppressor is greatly limited by the impedance of the circuit wiring.
The 9000A value for the 2nd suppressor should be high enough. I would
prefer a higher value, not because the suppressor would see that much
current, but higher current is generally tied to a higher energy (Joule)
rating which gives a longer life.
The hanford link is about "some older model" power strips and says
overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that requires thermal
disconnects in the US. That was 1998. It is probable that the UK has
also fixed overheating.
> But then we have another and the most obvious
> reason why it does not even claim to protect. Where is the dedicated
> connection to the building earth ground rod? Where does the
> manufacturer discuss earthing? No earth ground means no effective
> protection.
w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in
suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power)
to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work
primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains
earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).
Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport
suppressors are described in both guides. Your 2nd suppressor has ports
for phone and antenna.
According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.
Service panel suppressors are a good idea.
The NIST guide’s comments:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances,
No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or
CATV or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link
appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that
does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance
is useless."
Summarizing ways to protect against surges, the IEEE guide says:
"The previous sections have shown, in general, how to protect electronic
systems in houses:
1) Proper grounding and bonding, especially at the service entrance.
2) AC panel and primary signal surge protection at or near the service
entrance.
3) Multi-port plug-in protectors near the equipment to be protected."
<snip>
> I like the idea of a dedicated surge protector and plugging a multi
> plug/outlet into it.
>
> it's for a home with a few computers. Less than 1000 pounds worth of
> equipment.
>
> I don't want to spend more than 100 pounds on this surge protector.
>
>
> what do you suggest?
I have been using computer since 70's and never owned any cheap/expensive
surge protector but cheapest extension cores with more outlets <bg>. Little
over a year ago, I got tired of power failure (just a quick switch) few
times a year during bad weather, I decided to buy a Bettery Backup for
around $50 (it was onsale) and it says it has built-in surge protector.
So ow I have the bests of both worlds "Battery Backup", "Surge Protector",
On 18 Sep, 16:35, bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
> w_tom wrote:
> > On Sep 17, 7:00 pm, "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk"
> > <jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> how's this onehttp://www.cybermarket.co.uk/ishop/923/shopscr5841.html
>
> Has no ratings. You don't know what you are getting.
>
>
>
> >> should I look for a particular make? or to avoid a particular make ?
>
> >> there's one here i'm looking at, currently on ebay. It's more
> >> expensivehttp://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Power-Multi-Plug-Index-6-Socket-Surge-Prote...
>
> Has ratings and ports for phone and antenna.
>
> There is no brand name on either unit. I would only buy a known brand
> name like Belkin
>
> The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is in an
> IEEE guide at:http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
> And also:http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
>
> The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
> NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. Both are written for the US,
> but the principles are the same for the UK.
>
> > Look
> > at its numbers. Minimal protectors start at 50,000 amps. And finally
> > is that little power strip going to stop what three miles of sky could
> > not?
>
> Plug-in suppressors work by clamping, not stopping. 50,000A might be
> useful for a service panel suppressor, although US and UK standards
> place the maximum probable surge at 10,000A. The current to a plug-in
> suppressor is greatly limited by the impedance of the circuit wiring.
> The 9000A value for the 2nd suppressor should be high enough. I would
> prefer a higher value, not because the suppressor would see that much
> current, but higher current is generally tied to a higher energy (Joule)
> rating which gives a longer life.
>
> > Not only does that protector not
> > even claim to protect. It may also create these scary pictures:
> > http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
>
> The hanford link is about "some older model" power strips and says
> overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that requires thermal
> disconnects in the US. That was 1998. It is probable that the UK has
> also fixed overheating.
>
> > But then we have another and the most obvious
> > reason why it does not even claim to protect. Where is the dedicated
> > connection to the building earth ground rod? Where does the
> > manufacturer discuss earthing? No earth ground means no effective
> > protection.
>
> w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
> must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
> well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in
> suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power)
> to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work
> primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains
> earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).
>
> Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
> plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
> suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
> the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
> damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport
> suppressors are described in both guides. Your 2nd suppressor has ports
> for phone and antenna.
>
> According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
> most frequently damaged by lightning is
> computers with a modem connection
> TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
> connections).
> All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.
>
>
>
> > Examples of protectors that actually would provide protection:
> > http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse06.htm
> > http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/pdf/ma...lies/m2_m4.pdf
>
> Service panel suppressors are a good idea.
> The NIST guide's comments:
> "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
> sufficient for the whole house?
> A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances,
> No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or
> CATV or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link
> appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that
> does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance
> is useless."
>
> Summarizing ways to protect against surges, the IEEE guide says:
> "The previous sections have shown, in general, how to protect electronic
> systems in houses:
> 1) Proper grounding and bonding, especially at the service entrance.
> 2) AC panel and primary signal surge protection at or near the service
> entrance.
> 3) Multi-port plug-in protectors near the equipment to be protected."
>
> --
> bud--
thanks for all the info.. Regarding belkin, i had forgotton about
belkin. i had heard that they had a good range of such things.
They sell multi port plug in protectors - multi plug things..
I guess Kony has a point about getting a single one and plugging a
multi into it. What do you think? I don't know of belkin selling such
things though..
On Sep 18, 11:28 am, "jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk"
<jameshanle...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> I like the idea of a dedicated surge protector and plugging a multi
> plug/outlet into it.
>
> it's for a home with a few computers. Less than 1000 pounds worth of
> equipment.
>
> I don't want to spend more than 100 pounds on this surge protector.
What protects your furnace? Dishwasher? Life critical items such
as the RCD and smoke detector? Any surge permitted into the home will
seek earth ground destructively. Surges that are earthed where they
enter the home will not overwhelm protection that is already inside
all those appliances. Bud who promoted for plug-in manufacturers
provides the citation that says exactly what a protector does on page
17 of 24 of http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your
> surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground. The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.
On page 6 (Adobe page 8 of 24) of
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
> "arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
> neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm. So
> a name that makes sense would be "surge diverter"
> but it was not picked. So, for the rest of this
> booklet, we will stick to the most popular "surge
> protector".
Well where is the earth ground when the protector is adjacent to the
appliance? Surge is sometimes earthed through the appliance.
Obviously destructive. A typically destructive surge that is not
earthed where utilities enter the building will then find destructive
paths inside the house.
Provided were examples of the protector that has an earthing wire.
A connection that should be less than 3 meters. Notice how British
Telephone operates during every thunderstorm without damage. They put
a protector where the wires enter a building AND make that connection
to earth as short as possible. Separation between protector and
computer only adds to that protection. But the most important fact -
if a short earthing connection is not made where surge enters the
building, then an adjacent (plug-in) protector may earth that surge
destructively through adjacent appliances.
Why do you think that power strip has so few joules. They are not
selling effective protection. They are promoting a higher profit
margin. To be effective, the surge protector must "simply divert it
to ground, where it can do no harm. " Provided were examples.
Don't forget other computers including the clock radio. Don't forget
about electronics that are more important to your life such as smoke
detectors. The most important component is every surge protection
system is the earth ground. Protectors that forget to even claim
protection - they also don't have that earthing wire.
You have little choice. Waste money on a power strip that is also a
fire hazard. Or buy the protector that actually does provide
protection - the one with an earthing wire. The one that earths
before a surge can enter the building. The one that is effective -
does same as BT does - costs about one quid per protected appliance.
So what protects your mobile while it is charging?
On Sep 18, 12:34 pm, Joel <J...@NoSpam.com> wrote:
> I have been using computer since 70's and never owned any cheap/expensive
> surge protector but cheapest extension cores with more outlets <bg>. Little
> over a year ago, I got tired of power failure (just a quick switch) few
> times a year during bad weather, I decided to buy a Bettery Backup for
> around $50 (it was onsale) and it says it has built-in surge protector.
>
> So ow I have the bests of both worlds "Battery Backup", "Surge Protector",
This salesman was selling purple cloth that eliminated malaria. He
said it scared away mosquitoes if hung over open windows. Anything
not written on spec sheets is irrelevant. See later paragraphs for
what they are really claiming.
View numeric spec sheets for UPS protection numbers. They can say
all they want. Only facts that matter are numbers on that spec
sheet. Notice: it does not list each type of surge AND protection
from that surge. Like the power strip protector, it does not even
claim to protect.
Then review its joules. 300 joules? That is near zero. But it is
not zero. So it is a protector. A near zero protector. So it
provides near zero protection from a type of surge that typically does
not do damage. Protection already inside appliances makes that type
of surge irrelevant. Notice how much they forget to mention. "It
provides protection" or "It provides near zero protection". They did
not lie.
UPS is only for battery backup. It does not protect hardware. Its
function is to protect data from blackouts and extreme brownouts.
Nothing more.
Your own numbers confirm it. Thirty years without damage. Well the
typically destructive surge - the one that overwhelms protection
inside appliances - occurs maybe once every seven years. In the UK,
that frequency is significantly less - as your own numbers show. We
install the inexpensive 'whole house' protector - just one - so that
everything is not overwhelmed by the rare surge. One 'whole house'
protector is the least expensive option. About one quid per
protected appliance.
The UPS has near zero protection. Near zero is sufficient to
trumpet *CONTAINS SURGE PROTECTION*. See numeric specification
sheet for reality in perspective.
is a cheap multi plug w/ surge protector OK ? 
Linear Mode
