Trying to understand the basics of video cameras

I'm trying to get an idea how to think about video cameras.
The first thing I ever recorded with was VHS, and later
I got an 8mm. There was a very noticable difference
between the two. I never noticed a difference between
8mm and High 8 though. What about Mini DV, and HDV,
and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape, so it is a
true digital format. Is that true? How much difference in
picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?
How about between different cameras that use the same
format? Is there a good website that explains the basics
of all that?

Thanks for any help!
David

On Jun 26, 11:45 am, dh@. wrote:
What about Mini DV, and HDV,
> and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
> is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape,

That is correct.

>so it is a
> true digital format. Is that true?

It is digital. I'm not sure what you mean by "true" digital.
Something's either digital or it's not. Otherwise, it's like being "a
little bit pregnant".

>How much difference in
> picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?

Each iteration is a huge gain in picture quality. 8mm (I assume you
mean analog) isn't as good as MiniDV, because the digital recording is
less prone to noise and interference issues. Naturally, both are
inferior to HDV, because HDV has greatly increased resolution.

Now, please bear in mind that some HD cameras do record onto standard
MiniDV tape. This is simply a matter of convenience. Standard MiniDV
recordings and HD-on-MiniDV are very different beasts that just happen
to have the same outside appearance. Also, bear in mind that HD
cameras record onto a wide variety of media these days... MiniDVD,
MiniDV, HDD, and even flash memory. All of which have their strengths
and faults... but I digress.

> How about between different cameras that use the same
> format?

If by that you mean which brands or models are the best, all I can say
is, I'm a Canon guy. No matter what your price range is, Canon will
give you your money's worth.

>Is there a good website that explains the basics
> of all that?

I used to use this site a lot: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

HTH.

--

Aaron J. Bossig

http://www.GodsLabRat.com

On Jun 26, 9:11 pm, godslab...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 26, 11:45 am, dh@. wrote:
> What about Mini DV, and HDV,
>
> > and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
> > is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape,
>
> That is correct.

Technically that is not correct. The recording process on tape is an
analog process. It represents the digital information, but is analog
recording. As a practical matter it does not make any difference.
Error correction built in to 'digital' cameras and decks helps
overcome the shortcomings of the analog recording process.

> >so it is a
> > true digital format. Is that true?
>
> It is digital. I'm not sure what you mean by "true" digital.
> Something's either digital or it's not. Otherwise, it's like being "a
> little bit pregnant".
>
> >How much difference in
> > picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?
>
> Each iteration is a huge gain in picture quality. 8mm (I assume you
> mean analog) isn't as good as MiniDV, because the digital recording is
> less prone to noise and interference issues. Naturally, both are
> inferior to HDV, because HDV has greatly increased resolution.

That may be in theory, but the quality of the camera and glass can
make a lesser format as good or better that a crap cam of a higher
format.

> Now, please bear in mind that some HD cameras do record onto standard
> MiniDV tape. This is simply a matter of convenience. Standard MiniDV
> recordings and HD-on-MiniDV are very different beasts that just happen
> to have the same outside appearance. Also, bear in mind that HD
> cameras record onto a wide variety of media these days... MiniDVD,
> MiniDV, HDD, and even flash memory. All of which have their strengths
> and faults... but I digress.
>
> > How about between different cameras that use the same
> > format?
>
> If by that you mean which brands or models are the best, all I can say
> is, I'm a Canon guy. No matter what your price range is, Canon will
> give you your money's worth.

Canon generally falls well behind Sony and sometimes Panasonic also in
value and especially in dependability. In HD Sony has quite a large
lead in cameras in quality and selection. Although the Canon HV 20/30
has a lot of bang for the buck in strictly consumer HD cameras. It has
some serious shortcomings preventing for gaining foothold in the
prosumer realm. Too bad, as it would be a great cam with a couple of
changes.

> >Is there a good website that explains the basics
> > of all that?

There are many web sites devoted to particular cams which are easy to
find, even though not well balanced you do increase your knowledge
base reading the info.

> I used to use this site a lot:http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

On Jun 27, 9:29*am, Bob A <Andys...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 9:11 pm, godslab...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 26, 11:45 am, dh@. wrote:
> > What about Mini DV, and HDV,
>
> > > and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
> > > is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape,
>
> > That is correct.
>
> Technically that is not correct. The recording process on tape is an
> analog process. It represents the digital information, but is analog
> recording. As a practical matter it does not make any difference.
> Error correction built in to 'digital' cameras and decks helps
> overcome the shortcomings of the analog recording process.
>
> > >so it is a
> > > true digital format. Is that true?
>
> > It is digital. *I'm not sure what you mean by "true" digital.
> > Something's either digital or it's not. *Otherwise, it's like being "a
> > little bit pregnant".
>
> > >How much difference in
> > > picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?
>
> > Each iteration is a huge gain in picture quality. *8mm (I assume you
> > mean analog) isn't as good as MiniDV, because the digital recording is
> > less prone to noise and interference issues. *Naturally, both are
> > inferior to HDV, because HDV has greatly increased resolution.
>
> That may be in theory, but the quality of the camera and glass can
> make a lesser format as good or better that a crap cam of a higher
> format.
>
> > Now, please bear in mind that some HD cameras do record onto standard
> > MiniDV tape. *This is simply a matter of convenience. *Standard MiniDV
> > recordings and HD-on-MiniDV are very different beasts that just happen
> > to have the same outside appearance. *Also, bear in mind that HD
> > cameras record onto a wide variety of media these days... MiniDVD,
> > MiniDV, HDD, and even flash memory. *All of which have their strengths
> > and faults... but I digress.
>
> > > How about between different cameras that use the same
> > > format?
>
> > If by that you mean which brands or models are the best, all I can say
> > is, I'm a Canon guy. *No matter what your price range is, Canon will
> > give you your money's worth.
>
> Canon generally falls well behind Sony and sometimes Panasonic also in
> value and especially in dependability. In HD Sony has quite a large
> lead in cameras in quality and selection. Although the Canon HV 20/30
> has a lot of bang for the buck in strictly consumer HD cameras. It has
> some serious shortcomings preventing for gaining foothold in the
> prosumer realm. Too bad, as it would be a great cam with a couple of
> changes.
>
> > >Is there a good website that explains the basics
> > > of all that?
>
> There are many web sites devoted to particular cams which are easy to
> find, even though not well balanced you do increase your knowledge
> base reading the info.
>
>
>
> > I used to use this site a lot:http://www.camcorderinfo.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was posting here to complain about my experience with my Sony
camcorder’s reliability. While I’m here though – I might ask in this
thread…….

What good is a high definition camcorder that records onto standard
definition DVDs?

Personally, I wanted Mini DV when I purchased my camcorder to have the
best possible source for editing on my PC. Are any of the hard drive
or flash drive camcorders in HD going to provide source that’s
worthwhile for editing?

At the time of my purchase and still to this day – I don’t have a
BlueRay player. So, I don’t see the point in shelling out the money
for a HD camcorder – Mini DV or not. Am I missing something?

My estimation is that if you want editable footage from your camcorder
then a Mini DV HD camcorder is the only way to go. Otherwise you’re
going to be stuck with whatever you’ve shot as is…..or in a much
degraded condition after it is edited and recompressed into another
MPEG. Assuming that most video editing programs can accept the MPEG
that these MPEG compressing cameras produce.

I’m no expert in this obviously. I just thought I might ask for
opinions while the subject is being discussed.

"Fastfwd" <fastfwd01@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:78a8e426-1bd9-4de8-b256-97b555fa8239@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 27, 9:29 am, Bob A <Andys...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jun 26, 9:11 pm, godslab...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 26, 11:45 am, dh@. wrote:
> > What about Mini DV, and HDV,
>
> > > and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
> > > is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape,
>
> > That is correct.
>
> Technically that is not correct. The recording process on tape is an
> analog process. It represents the digital information, but is analog
> recording. As a practical matter it does not make any difference.
> Error correction built in to 'digital' cameras and decks helps
> overcome the shortcomings of the analog recording process.
>
> > >so it is a
> > > true digital format. Is that true?
>
> > It is digital. I'm not sure what you mean by "true" digital.
> > Something's either digital or it's not. Otherwise, it's like being "a
> > little bit pregnant".
>
> > >How much difference in
> > > picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?
>
> > Each iteration is a huge gain in picture quality. 8mm (I assume you
> > mean analog) isn't as good as MiniDV, because the digital recording is
> > less prone to noise and interference issues. Naturally, both are
> > inferior to HDV, because HDV has greatly increased resolution.
>
> That may be in theory, but the quality of the camera and glass can
> make a lesser format as good or better that a crap cam of a higher
> format.
>
> > Now, please bear in mind that some HD cameras do record onto standard
> > MiniDV tape. This is simply a matter of convenience. Standard MiniDV
> > recordings and HD-on-MiniDV are very different beasts that just happen
> > to have the same outside appearance. Also, bear in mind that HD
> > cameras record onto a wide variety of media these days... MiniDVD,
> > MiniDV, HDD, and even flash memory. All of which have their strengths
> > and faults... but I digress.
>
> > > How about between different cameras that use the same
> > > format?
>
> > If by that you mean which brands or models are the best, all I can say
> > is, I'm a Canon guy. No matter what your price range is, Canon will
> > give you your money's worth.
>
> Canon generally falls well behind Sony and sometimes Panasonic also in
> value and especially in dependability. In HD Sony has quite a large
> lead in cameras in quality and selection. Although the Canon HV 20/30
> has a lot of bang for the buck in strictly consumer HD cameras. It has
> some serious shortcomings preventing for gaining foothold in the
> prosumer realm. Too bad, as it would be a great cam with a couple of
> changes.
>
> > >Is there a good website that explains the basics
> > > of all that?
>
> There are many web sites devoted to particular cams which are easy to
> find, even though not well balanced you do increase your knowledge
> base reading the info.
>
>
>
> > I used to use this site a lot:http://www.camcorderinfo.com/- Hide quoted
> > text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was posting here to complain about my experience with my Sony
camcorder's reliability. While I'm here though - I might ask in this
thread...

What good is a high definition camcorder that records onto standard
definition DVDs?

The dvd is a storage medium not a format in this case. HD signals can easily
be stored on a DVD but the running time is reduced. Editable on PC and
very cost effective.

Personally, I wanted Mini DV when I purchased my camcorder to have the
best possible source for editing on my PC. Are any of the hard drive
or flash drive camcorders in HD going to provide source that's
worthwhile for editing?

I dont understand the question. The source files are what is important not
what they are stored on.

At the time of my purchase and still to this day - I don't have a
BlueRay player. So, I don't see the point in shelling out the money
for a HD camcorder - Mini DV or not. Am I missing something?

Yes tomorow or next year you may have all the HD equipment you want but
your Vudeo footage will still only be SD.
I would plan for the future and get HD now if buying now.

My estimation is that if you want editable footage from your camcorder
then a Mini DV HD camcorder is the only way to go. Otherwise you're
going to be stuck with whatever you've shot as is...or in a much
degraded condition after it is edited and recompressed into another
MPEG. Assuming that most video editing programs can accept the MPEG
that these MPEG compressing cameras produce.

Most files will be MPEG but that is not nessasarly a bad thing. The latest
mpeg used for HD is pretty good. but what other options do you have if
you are gong to edit..

I'm no expert in this obviously. I just thought I might ask for
opinions while the subject is being discussed.

neither am I

On Jul 1, 4:03*am, "Gary" <Garys...@spamasmailorder.com> wrote:
> "Fastfwd" <fastfw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:78a8e426-1bd9-4de8-b256-97b555fa8239@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 27, 9:29 am, Bob A <Andys...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 26, 9:11 pm, godslab...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 26, 11:45 am, dh@. wrote:
> > > What about Mini DV, and HDV,
>
> > > > and whatever else? I have been led to believe that Mini DV
> > > > is a digital signal recorded onto magnetic tape,
>
> > > That is correct.
>
> > Technically that is not correct. The recording process on tape is an
> > analog process. It represents the digital information, but is analog
> > recording. As a practical matter it does not make any difference.
> > Error correction built in to 'digital' cameras and decks helps
> > overcome the shortcomings of the analog recording process.
>
> > > >so it is a
> > > > true digital format. Is that true?
>
> > > It is digital. I'm not sure what you mean by "true" digital.
> > > Something's either digital or it's not. Otherwise, it's like being "a
> > > little bit pregnant".
>
> > > >How much difference in
> > > > picture quality is there between 8mm, Mini DV, and HDV?
>
> > > Each iteration is a huge gain in picture quality. 8mm (I assume you
> > > mean analog) isn't as good as MiniDV, because the digital recording is
> > > less prone to noise and interference issues. Naturally, both are
> > > inferior to HDV, because HDV has greatly increased resolution.
>
> > That may be in theory, but the quality of the camera and glass can
> > make a lesser format as good or better that a crap cam of a higher
> > format.
>
> > > Now, please bear in mind that some HD cameras do record onto standard
> > > MiniDV tape. This is simply a matter of convenience. Standard MiniDV
> > > recordings and HD-on-MiniDV are very different beasts that just happen
> > > to have the same outside appearance. Also, bear in mind that HD
> > > cameras record onto a wide variety of media these days... MiniDVD,
> > > MiniDV, HDD, and even flash memory. All of which have their strengths
> > > and faults... but I digress.
>
> > > > How about between different cameras that use the same
> > > > format?
>
> > > If by that you mean which brands or models are the best, all I can say
> > > is, I'm a Canon guy. No matter what your price range is, Canon will
> > > give you your money's worth.
>
> > Canon generally falls well behind Sony and sometimes Panasonic also in
> > value and especially in dependability. In HD Sony has quite a large
> > lead in cameras in quality and selection. Although the Canon HV 20/30
> > has a lot of bang for the buck in strictly consumer HD cameras. It has
> > some serious shortcomings preventing for gaining foothold in the
> > prosumer realm. Too bad, as it would be a great cam with a couple of
> > changes.
>
> > > >Is there a good website that explains the basics
> > > > of all that?
>
> > There are many web sites devoted to particular cams which are easy to
> > find, even though not well balanced you do increase your knowledge
> > base reading the info.
>
> > > I used to use this site a lot:http://www.camcorderinfo.com/-Hide quoted
> > > text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I was posting here to complain about my experience with my Sony
> camcorder's reliability. *While I'm here though - I might ask in this
> thread...
>
> What good is a high definition camcorder that records onto standard
> definition DVDs?
>
> The dvd is a storage medium not a format in this case. HD signals can easily
> be stored on a DVD but the running time is reduced. * Editable on PC and
> very cost effective.
>
> Personally, I wanted Mini DV when I purchased my camcorder to have the
> best possible source for editing on my PC. *Are any of the hard drive
> or flash drive camcorders in HD going to provide source that's
> worthwhile for editing?
>
> I dont understand the question. The source files *are what is important not
> what they are stored on.
>
> At the time of my purchase and still to this day - I don't have a
> BlueRay player. *So, I don't see the point in shelling out the money
> for a HD camcorder - Mini DV or not. *Am I missing something?
>
> Yes *tomorow or next year you may have all the HD equipment you want but
> your Vudeo footage will still only be SD.
> I would plan for the future and get HD now if buying now.
>
> My estimation is that if you want editable footage from your camcorder
> then a Mini DV HD camcorder is the only way to go. *Otherwise you're
> going to be stuck with whatever you've shot as is...or in a much
> degraded condition after it is edited and recompressed into another
> MPEG. *Assuming that most video editing programs can accept the MPEG
> that these MPEG compressing cameras produce.
>
> Most files will be MPEG but that is not nessasarly *a bad thing. The latest
> mpeg used for *HD is pretty good. but what other options * do you have if
> you are gong to edit..
>
> I'm no expert in this obviously. *I just thought I might ask for
> opinions while the subject is being discussed.
>
> neither am I- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So, these HD camcorders with DVD storage are burning DVD’s that the
average consumer can’t pop in their DVD player? That’s got to be
confusing for a lot of people.

A camcorder isn’t a huge deal to me really. I was going all out to
spend $500 on the one that I bought. No way I’m going to spend a
thousand dollars on a HD camcorder with Mini DV. That’s the only
format that I would buy.

I think it’s a shame that the manufacturers are steering away from
MiniDV for what seems like a minor improvement in convenience. If
you’re shooting HD it would seem like you would want the best possible
means to record your video.

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 06:13:50 -0700 (PDT), Fastfwd <fastfwd01@gmail.com>
sharpened a new quill and scratched:

---> bobbit million other posts

>So, these HD camcorders with DVD storage are burning DVD?s that the
>average consumer can?t pop in their DVD player? That?s got to be
>confusing for a lot of people.
>
>A camcorder isn?t a huge deal to me really. I was going all out to
>spend $500 on the one that I bought. No way I?m going to spend a
>thousand dollars on a HD camcorder with Mini DV. That?s the only
>format that I would buy.
>
>I think it?s a shame that the manufacturers are steering away from
>MiniDV for what seems like a minor improvement in convenience. If
>you?re shooting HD it would seem like you would want the best possible
>means to record your video.

Get one with a hard drive, upload to your computer, edit, burn to DVD
as BluRay. Bingo, simple. The 'minor improvement in convenience' is
about as minor as the improvement from audio tape to CD. You seem to
have some fixation on MiniDV like a friend I have who's more concerned
about getting rid of his videotape machine than the advantages of the
new DVD-recorder he got for Christmas.

Kay

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

Mini DV tape is by far the most dependable, durable method of
capturing and storing video. You can drop a DV tape or even throw it
across the room and not lose a single frame of image. Try that with
your hard drive some time. One tiny hit on a hard drive can render the
whole thing junk without spending thousands on a recovery service. DVD
camcorders are definitely useless, can't play universally, can't edit
with out taking a serious hit it resolution. BluRay will never have
market penetration, it will be replaced before it gets off the
ground. Stick with MiniDV, you cam make it into whatever the flavor
of the month format is next week and still keep the high quality
original for a very long time.
>
> Get one with a hard drive, upload to your computer, edit, burn to DVD
> as BluRay. Bingo, simple. The 'minor improvement in convenience' is
> about as minor as the improvement from audio tape to CD. You seem to
> have some fixation on MiniDV like a friend I have who's more concerned
> about getting rid of his videotape machine than the advantages of the
> new DVD-recorder he got for Christmas.
>
> Kay
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.