Recs on wide lens with good zoom for Canon 20D

I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
magnification:

Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
(35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)

If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
max 600mm?

What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
$400 (used) if possible.

Thanks,
Brett

brett wrote:
> I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
> I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
> 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
> magnification:
>
> Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
> (35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)
>
> If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
> max 600mm?

Those "specs" aren't for that lens, they're generalizations of what
focal lengths are considered to be what "types" of lenses.

17-85 won't give you a significantly wider view than you've got now.
Might be noticeable, BARELY. You'll also find the general
recommendation is to avoid the EF-S lenses if you ever plan on upgrading
your camera later - they'll only work on the cameras with the smaller
sensors (Canon three- and two-digit dSLRs, like 400D, 20D, 30D, etc.)

> What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
> least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
> $400 (used) if possible.

Depends on how you define "good". Keep in mind that with a larger zoom
range, you're generally trading off things like sharpness, largest
aperture size, and weight.

Looking at Canon's site, the only zoom lens they list that will get you
noticeably wider than your kit lens is the EF-S 10-22mm. They do have a
"new" 16-35mm f/2.8 L-series zoom, but you can probably expect to tack
another zero on your desired price for that.

Anything beyond that, you'll probably need to look at a third-party
manufacturer, like Sigma or Tamron.

Thanks. You mentioned to avoid EFS lenses but I have a Canon 20D (in
your list).

I believe the 18mm will do for a while. It's more zoom that I need.
The 17-85mm lens is on eBay and will probably go for under $400. I'm
guessing that's my best bet given a budget.

Matt Ion wrote:
> brett wrote:
>> I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
>> I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
>> 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
>> magnification:
>>
>> Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
>> (35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)
>>
>> If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
>> max 600mm?
>
> Those "specs" aren't for that lens, they're generalizations of what
> focal lengths are considered to be what "types" of lenses.
>
> 17-85 won't give you a significantly wider view than you've got now.
> Might be noticeable, BARELY. You'll also find the general
> recommendation is to avoid the EF-S lenses if you ever plan on upgrading
> your camera later - they'll only work on the cameras with the smaller
> sensors (Canon three- and two-digit dSLRs, like 400D, 20D, 30D, etc.)
>
>> What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
>> least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
>> $400 (used) if possible.
>
> Depends on how you define "good". Keep in mind that with a larger zoom
> range, you're generally trading off things like sharpness, largest
> aperture size, and weight.
>
> Looking at Canon's site, the only zoom lens they list that will get you
> noticeably wider than your kit lens is the EF-S 10-22mm. They do have a
> "new" 16-35mm f/2.8 L-series zoom, but you can probably expect to tack
> another zero on your desired price for that.
>
> Anything beyond that, you'll probably need to look at a third-party
> manufacturer, like Sigma or Tamron.

Took a look just out of curiosity... Sigma has a 10-20mm zoom,
f/4-f/5.6, list price US$730, and a 12-24mm f/4.5-f/5.6 listed at
US$960. Tamron has an 11-18mm f/4.5-5/6, no MSRP listed on their site,
but expect it to be in the same price range as Sigma's 10-20.

brett wrote:
> I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
> I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
> 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
> magnification:
>
> Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
> (35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)
>
> If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
> max 600mm?

Likely quite soft. As zoom range increases above 3x, image
quality tends to suffer, or the price goes way up (due to
the needed more complex lens design).
>
> What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
> least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
> $400 (used) if possible.

Another option is not to use a wide angle lens at all:
do digital mosaics, e.g. this 6 frame mosaic is wider
than with a 14mm lens, but I effectively made the image
as if it was from a 24 megapixel camera, and hand held at that:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...44-9b-800.html

I often carry nothing shorter than 28mm, and I don't own a lens
shorter than 24 mm (24 f/2.8 canon). When I want a wider angle,
I take 2 or more frames and mosaic them. Since discovering this
technique, I feel unencumbered by aspect ratio: I can go from
panoramic to square. I use ptgui (ptgui.com).

Roger

a lovely photo but not surprising given the photographer :-) ...

try the panorama feature in cs3 - i also have used ptgui and took the
same photos i combined with ptgui and used cs3 to create a panorama
....

cs3 was faster, easier and had less "bending" on the edge shots ...and
the colors were blended a bit better i think ....

steve

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:46:01 -0600, "Roger N. Clark (change username
to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net> wrote:

>brett wrote:
>> I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
>> I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
>> 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
>> magnification:
>>
>> Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
>> (35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)
>>
>> If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
>> max 600mm?
>
>Likely quite soft. As zoom range increases above 3x, image
>quality tends to suffer, or the price goes way up (due to
>the needed more complex lens design).
>>
>> What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
>> least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
>> $400 (used) if possible.
>
>Another option is not to use a wide angle lens at all:
>do digital mosaics, e.g. this 6 frame mosaic is wider
>than with a 14mm lens, but I effectively made the image
>as if it was from a 24 megapixel camera, and hand held at that:
>http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...44-9b-800.html
>
>I often carry nothing shorter than 28mm, and I don't own a lens
>shorter than 24 mm (24 f/2.8 canon). When I want a wider angle,
>I take 2 or more frames and mosaic them. Since discovering this
>technique, I feel unencumbered by aspect ratio: I can go from
>panoramic to square. I use ptgui (ptgui.com).
>
>Roger

> Another option is not to use a wide angle lens at all:
> do digital mosaics, e.g. this 6 frame mosaic is wider
> than with a 14mm lens, but I effectively made the image
> as if it was from a 24 megapixel camera, and hand held at >that:http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries.../manyara.sunse...

Ah! But you have the 135mm zoom.

> I use ptgui (ptgui.com).

Nice technique and neat program by the way. What is going on with
some of those in their gallery http://www.ptgui.com/gallery/ that are
very distorted vs. some of the landscapes that look nice? For
example, your photo isn't distored with many curves.

pshaw@emmet.com wrote:
> a lovely photo but not surprising given the photographer :-) ...

Thanks.
>
> try the panorama feature in cs3 - i also have used ptgui and took the
> same photos i combined with ptgui and used cs3 to create a panorama
> ...
>
> cs3 was faster, easier and had less "bending" on the edge shots ...and
> the colors were blended a bit better i think ....

I have tried the CS3 tool. While it works ok, but what you get out
has a hard blend line, and if you make any change to the
image, like a curves stretch, the seam becomes apparent.
You also have no control over where the seam is, which makes
it difficult (impossible) to fix errors due to subject movement.
You also have no choice on the projection (see my other response
I'm about to post).

Roger
>
> steve
>
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 23:46:01 -0600, "Roger N. Clark (change username
> to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>> brett wrote:
>>> I have a Canon 20D with a Canon EFS (auto/manual focus) 18-55mm lens.
>>> I'd like something wider and more zoom. I'm considering a Canon EF-S
>>> 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens (9517A002). It list these specs for
>>> magnification:
>>>
>>> Super Wide Angle (9 - 21mm), Wide Angle (21 - 35mm), Normal / Straight
>>> (35 - 65mm), Telephoto (65 to 600mm)
>>>
>>> If the lens range is 17-85mm, how is wide angle at max 9mm and zoom at
>>> max 600mm?
>> Likely quite soft. As zoom range increases above 3x, image
>> quality tends to suffer, or the price goes way up (due to
>> the needed more complex lens design).
>>> What is a good lens for something wider than 17mm with zoom to at
>>> least 85mm with auto/manual focus? I'd like to keep the cost under
>>> $400 (used) if possible.
>> Another option is not to use a wide angle lens at all:
>> do digital mosaics, e.g. this 6 frame mosaic is wider
>> than with a 14mm lens, but I effectively made the image
>> as if it was from a 24 megapixel camera, and hand held at that:
>> http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...44-9b-800.html
>>
>> I often carry nothing shorter than 28mm, and I don't own a lens
>> shorter than 24 mm (24 f/2.8 canon). When I want a wider angle,
>> I take 2 or more frames and mosaic them. Since discovering this
>> technique, I feel unencumbered by aspect ratio: I can go from
>> panoramic to square. I use ptgui (ptgui.com).
>>
>> Roger
>

brett wrote:
>> Another option is not to use a wide angle lens at all:
>> do digital mosaics, e.g. this 6 frame mosaic is wider
>> than with a 14mm lens, but I effectively made the image
>> as if it was from a 24 megapixel camera, and hand held at >that:http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries.../manyara.sunse...
>
> Ah! But you have the 135mm zoom.

So? The point is that regardless of the focal length, you can make
as wide an angle image as you wish (assuming your computer
gear can crunch all the images in a reasonable time).
>
>> I use ptgui (ptgui.com).
>
> Nice technique and neat program by the way. What is going on with
> some of those in their gallery http://www.ptgui.com/gallery/ that are
> very distorted vs. some of the landscapes that look nice? For
> example, your photo isn't distored with many curves.

That is due to the projection chosen. What we image with our cameras
is a sphere projected onto the flat film plane, similar to the
way maps of the earth are projections of a sphere onto a
flat piece of paper. In such cases, distortion is a
mathematical fact. But by choosing different methods of
projection, one can minimize one type of distortion for
another. Ptgui allows you to choose the projection and has
tools to minimize curvature, e.g. of the horizon.
Another advantage of mosaicking software:
minimize distortions not only due to the projection but also
lens distortions. With a single wide angle lens and standard
processing you can't do that.

Want a wide angle image with the horizon not in the
center and the horizon straight? You can't do that
with a normal wide angle lens and standard processing.
With digital mosaicking software, you can. e.g.:
http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/large_mosaics
(update: the 14 hours processing time cited in the article
was on an old computer; my new computer it seems to be a few
minutes, but I have yet to do an precise timing test).

Roger

brett wrote:
> Thanks. You mentioned to avoid EFS lenses but I have a Canon 20D (in
> your list).

Yes: the EF-S lenses will only work on Canon digital SLRs with the APS-C
sized sensors, which means the two- and three-digit models.

If you ever upgrade to a single-digit model (1D series, 5D, etc.), the
EF-S lenses won't attach to it.