I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
recharge the batteries.
I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
whether it would be best to:
1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
down.
2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
doesn't hurt anything.
etc.
It boils down to a couple of issues: the "off" voltage droop of the
battery in & out of the camera, speed of charging, whether batteries can
be safely left in the charger for months, and the liklihood that a modern
high quality battery will fail & damage the camera.
I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
devices.
For light/basic use, Id look at the Pentax K100 or K110. It takes AAs.
Purchase a set of Eneloops or Rayovac Hybrid rechargables (much cheaper than
the OEM Li-ion). You can have a backup set or use Alkaline or lithium
batteries in a pinch.
John
"Doug White" <gwhite@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:KcOdneAvcqMcxwfbnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@rcn.net...
>I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
>
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
>
> It boils down to a couple of issues: the "off" voltage droop of the
> battery in & out of the camera, speed of charging, whether batteries can
> be safely left in the charger for months, and the liklihood that a modern
> high quality battery will fail & damage the camera.
>
> I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
> cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
> it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
> given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
> approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
> devices.
>
> Thoughts, comments or suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
>
Doug White wrote:
> I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
Nearly all D-SLRs use Li-Ion packs. A month or two is no problem at all,
you'll still be at over 80% capacity even with self-discharge. You can
get a vertical grip and use AA alkalines, or Sanyo Eneloop batteries,
but it's unnecessary. Note that very low end D-SLRs may not have a
battery grip that uses AA cells available, i.e. the Nikon D40x, but you
stated that you were buying a good digital SLR so you're probably at
least looking at the D80.
The best site for learning about the trade-offs in battery types is
"http://www.batterydata.com/". Lots of charts on the various
characteristics of different battery types, including charts on
self-discharge, number of cycles, etc. It's the premier site for this
type of data. Oh, wait, did I mention that it's my site?
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
My second body is a Canon 350D (same battery technology as Nikon equivalent)
and I only use it every 4 weeks or so for most of the year. I've never
picked it up and had a flat battery - I've had low battery, but that's
probably O.K. for up to 100 or so shots.
Get your DSLR - and for your use there will be some bargain second hand ones
available, charge the battery and then put the camera on the shelf until you
need it. Don't worry about battery management for such low use. If you find
that 4 months later you want to use it and the battery is flat then bung the
battery on charge for 10 minutes, you'll get some enough shots on a short
charge. And is 10 minutes really too long to wait if you've had the thing on
the shelf for months? You may even (every month or so) have a few moments of
quiet contemplation during your circuit design sessions when putting a
battery on charge is a useful 30 second distraction.
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:33:52 +0000, Doug White wrote:
> I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
>
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
>
> It boils down to a couple of issues: the "off" voltage droop of the
> battery in & out of the camera, speed of charging, whether batteries can
> be safely left in the charger for months, and the liklihood that a modern
> high quality battery will fail & damage the camera.
>
> I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
> cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
> it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
> given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
> approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
> devices.
>
> Thoughts, comments or suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:33:52 GMT, Doug White wrote:
> I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
>
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
Li-Ion batteries can be recharged at any time, which is good,
since they aren't as tolerant as NiMH batteries of being used until
they run down. You should NOT leave an Li-Ion battery on standby in
it charger. I've seen several aftermarket Li-Ion battery
instruction sheets, and they both include warnings that even if the
batteries are completely unused, they should be put back into the
charger for a *short* charge, maybe only 5 or 10 minutes, instead of
the usual several hours that are often needed to fully charge them.
One manufacturer says to do this every 3 months, if necessary, the
other say to do it every 6 months. From the usage that you've
described, you probably don't need a second backup battery. It
sounds like you'd have no problems with the battery running low if
you give it a full charge every 2 or 3 months, whether the battery
needs it or not.
Li-Ion batteries are unique in that they have a fairly high steady
deterioration rate whether you use them or not, and so while they'll
last longer for some people, the consensus is that Li-Ion battery
packs generally are replaced not much after they've been used for
three years. Some last much less. All of the Li-Ion battery packs
I've used in cell phones have had to be replaced after about 1 1/2
years even though the got little use. It's probably because I
charged them approximately weekly, when the batteries were very low,
but still had a slight amount of charge left. If you don't mind
paying twice as much by adding a backup battery because you think it
would more convenient to have a backup, that's fine. But because of
the self-deterioration problem, by the time you'd have to replace
both batteries, the total number of shots they provided will have
been the same number of shots that a single Li-Ion battery would
have provided. Not very cost effective, but probably not close to
busting your budget.
If you store the main Li-Ion battery outside of the camera, and
the camera doesn't have a button cell lithium battery (as many Canon
cameras have), at the very least, eventually the camera's
clock/calendar will stop running if the battery has been removed
long enough, and you'll have to reset the time/date the next time
the battery is reinserted. It's best to leave the battery in
Nikon's DSLRs. Even if you forget to turn the power off, they use
such a small amount of standby power that you can store it for
months that way that the battery won't lose much of its charge.
> I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
> cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
> it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
> given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
> approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
> devices.
You can get battery grips for all of Nikon's DSLRs, but Nikon
doesn't make them for some, such as the D50 and D40. I haven't
heard of any leakage problems from Li-Ion battery packs, but even if
they do leak, you're likely to notice a problem using them before
leakage is visible, since if the Li-Ion cells do leak, they're still
contained within the proprietary Li-Ion battery pack's "package". A
warranty should cover any potential damage from batteries, and you
can get a 5yr Mack warranty (4yr extension of Nikon's 1yr warranty)
from B&H and Adorama for between $35 and $50, which is much cheaper*
than most battery grips, and of course the coverage is for much more
than just battery damage. The grips I've seen also appear to be
quite clumsy unless you're using the camera positioned for portrait
photography, so you might want to try using them before buying, and
check to make sure that they don't make mounting the camera on a
tripod any less secure than without the battery grip.
* Much cheaper only for inexpensive cameras, since this particular
"full" warranty is for cameras selling for up to $500. More
expensive bodies would require more expensive warranties.
Doug White wrote:
> I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
>
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
>
> It boils down to a couple of issues: the "off" voltage droop of the
> battery in & out of the camera, speed of charging, whether batteries can
> be safely left in the charger for months, and the liklihood that a modern
> high quality battery will fail & damage the camera.
>
> I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
> cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
> it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
> given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
> approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
> devices.
>
> Thoughts, comments or suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
>
If you are using Li-ion batteries, then there is little concern for how
you are using the camera as Li-ion batteries have a low self-discharge
rate. As for taking the battery out of the camera, I wouldn't do that
unless you plan an extended (more than 6 month) period of non-use. As
for keeping a spare in the charger, such if you have one. Never hurts
to have a spare on hand.
Doug White wrote:
> I will be buying a good digital SLR (probably a Nikon, so I'm looking at
> Li Ion batteries) in the next few months for documenting circuits &
> mechanisms I build in my shop. I will probably use it occasionally for
> other things, but it may go for a week or two without being used. When I
> use it, I may take 10 or 20 pictures tops, frequently with flash, and
> then it gets put away again. There may be periods where it wouldn't get
> used for as much as a month or two, I never know. Ideally, I'd like to
> be able to pick it up and start taking pictures without having to
> recharge the batteries.
>
> I'm not up on the latest in camera battery technology and I'm wondering
> whether it would be best to:
>
> 1) Leave the main battery in the camera and only recharge it when it runs
> down.
>
> 2) Do the above and keep a 2nd battery on standby in the charger so I
> don't have to wait when the battery gets tired.
>
> 3) Store the main battery in the charger so it is always ready to go.
>
> 4) Do 1), but store the battery outside of the camera so if it leaks it
> doesn't hurt anything.
>
> etc.
>
> It boils down to a couple of issues: the "off" voltage droop of the
> battery in & out of the camera, speed of charging, whether batteries can
> be safely left in the charger for months, and the liklihood that a modern
> high quality battery will fail & damage the camera.
>
> I've noticed mention that one can get external grips that take alkaline
> cells, which have extremely long shelf life and if they leak in the grip,
> it's no big deal. That way I don't have to mess with a charger, and
> given the number of pictures I will be taking, might not be a bad
> approach. I always have a bunch of AA alkalines on hand for other
> devices.
>
> Thoughts, comments or suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
>
I buy and keep a duplicate battery, labeling the original battery "A"
and the spare one "B". I charge the spare battery, keep it in a plastic
container then in a mini-ziploc bag, and carry it with me with the
camera. Every 3 months I swap batteries. If one battery gets too low in
the camera, then I swap batteries then. It is highly unlikely that two
batteries will be discharged at the same time, especially Li ions, which
have a low self-discharge rate.
"ASAAR" <caught@22.com> wrote in message
news:btsk93lgneh6ctbjjst8b8svqcqgtmmesf@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 17:33:52 GMT, Doug White wrote:
>
> Li-Ion batteries are unique in that they have a fairly high steady
> deterioration rate whether you use them or not, and so while they'll
> last longer for some people, the consensus is that Li-Ion battery
> packs generally are replaced not much after they've been used for
> three years.
I keep reading about the 'three years' but that certainly hasn't been my
experience. The Li-Ion battery that came in my Canon G1 in April '01 is
still working fine as is the one that came in my 10D in March of '03. I
have had a generic battery that only lasted 2 years, but another bought at
the same time is still working.
The generic Li-Ion batteries are now so cheap it wouldn't be a big deal if
you had to replace then annually.
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:23:40 -0500, Ron Recer wrote:
> I keep reading about the 'three years' but that certainly hasn't been my
> experience. The Li-Ion battery that came in my Canon G1 in April '01 is
> still working fine as is the one that came in my 10D in March of '03. I
> have had a generic battery that only lasted 2 years, but another bought at
> the same time is still working.
The 'three year' estimate doesn't mean that the Li-Ion batteries
stop working soon after three years. Their capacity steadily
declines, some faster, some slower, depending on how they're used.
This isn't some internet myth, as it is mentioned not only by Li-Ion
battery manufacturers, but by Li-Ion's #1 fanboy, SMS.
> The generic Li-Ion batteries are now so cheap it wouldn't be a big deal if
> you had to replace then annually.
Your problem with one of the two generic batteries isn't
unsurprising. Some people have nothing but good experiences with
cheap Li-Ion clones. But you usually can't expect non-OEM suppliers
to provide identical batteries if you don't buy them at the same
time. The outside shell may be the same, but what's contained
within the shell varies quite a bit. I guess that the OEMs have
such a large markup that they don't have the same pressure to keep
trying to get the battery components from the lowest bidders.
I agree that if money isn't a big concern, you could replace the
batteries frequently or buy several, to have backups. But it's
still true that paying $20/year (for someone that replaces generic
battery packs yearly) is a lot more than paying a dollar or two per
year, which is the high end of what I pay for my non-Li-Ion
batteries. This is a problem that compounds itself for those that
get new cameras every couple of years. If you want to occasionally
use the 3 year old and 5 year old cameras, you'll eventually have to
consider sinking some more money into replacing their batteries too.
I have a 7 year old Powershot that won't be seeing any new
proprietary batteries, because it just isn't worth buying another
$20 battery pack for it, let alone spending about $50 to get it from
Canon. If it was only 3 or 4 years old I'd probably spend the $20,
even while realizing that I'd probably use it so little that I'd
only get about 25 cents worth of use from it.
Best Strategy for Occasional Battery Use? 
Linear Mode
