Journey wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:53:21 -0800, Steve <hde@wbn.inv> wrote:
>
> >Ok, here's a stupid question - other than being a better surge
> >protector, what does a UPS do? Does it come into play only if you
> >happen to be working at the computer when a surge hits? Then you get
> >a couple minutes to save your work and log off? Any other benefits?
>
> I haven't purchased one yet (I will soon), but I won't buy one unless
> it has auto-shutdown software in case of a power outage. I leave my
> desktop on all the time and it's likely that in case of an outage I
> wouldn't be home.
They're useful without autoshutdown. The killer for data is a double
power hit, where the power goes off, on, off, on, off, and catches
the computer in a really bad state on the second one. A UPS turns
off cleanly once.
And of course you can work right through momentary power hits.
Ron Hardin wrote:
> Journey wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 21:53:21 -0800, Steve <hde@wbn.inv> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, here's a stupid question - other than being a better surge
>>> protector, what does a UPS do? Does it come into play only if you
>>> happen to be working at the computer when a surge hits? Then you get
>>> a couple minutes to save your work and log off? Any other benefits?
>> I haven't purchased one yet (I will soon), but I won't buy one unless
>> it has auto-shutdown software in case of a power outage. I leave my
>> desktop on all the time and it's likely that in case of an outage I
>> wouldn't be home.
>
> They're useful without autoshutdown. The killer for data is a double
> power hit, where the power goes off, on, off, on, off, and catches
> the computer in a really bad state on the second one. A UPS turns
> off cleanly once.
>
> And of course you can work right through momentary power hits.
My system's primary UPS is an APC Smart-UPS 1000XL... With my current
configuration, I have >100 minutes of battery runtime, with the option
of adding additional batteries for even more.
Working in the field of organ transplantation, it's critical for me
to have reliable Internet and data access.
Notan wrote:
> My system's primary UPS is an APC Smart-UPS 1000XL... With my current
> configuration, I have >100 minutes of battery runtime, with the option
> of adding additional batteries for even more.
Explain the ``additional batteries''
The problem with wiring in a deep discharge marine battery is that
the charger doesn't necessarily work right with it. Does this thing
have some arrangement that works?
--
Ron Hardin rhhardin@mindspring.com
Ron Hardin wrote:
> Notan wrote:
>> My system's primary UPS is an APC Smart-UPS 1000XL... With my current
>> configuration, I have >100 minutes of battery runtime, with the option
>> of adding additional batteries for even more.
>
> Explain the ``additional batteries''
>
> The problem with wiring in a deep discharge marine battery is that
> the charger doesn't necessarily work right with it. Does this thing
> have some arrangement that works?
Notan wrote:
>
> Ron Hardin wrote:
> > Notan wrote:
> >> My system's primary UPS is an APC Smart-UPS 1000XL... With my current
> >> configuration, I have >100 minutes of battery runtime, with the option
> >> of adding additional batteries for even more.
> >
> > Explain the ``additional batteries''
> >
> > The problem with wiring in a deep discharge marine battery is that
> > the charger doesn't necessarily work right with it. Does this thing
> > have some arrangement that works?
>
> Here's the UPS:
>
> http://apc.com/resource/include/tech..._sku=SUA1000XL,
>
> and the Runtime Chart for the UPS with additional batteries:
>
> http://apc.com/products/runtime_for_...?upsfamily=164
>
> --
> Notan
Four of the 250 pound batteries would give you a really nice run time of 3 days.
I think it's all going the wrong direction. What you want is a UPC that
can safely keep an ordinary deep-cycle marine battery charged, and hook
one up. Since it's a single 12v battery, it has to be a low power UPC,
say 400w is fine (otherwise you draw insane currents from a 12v battery).
When the battery dies, just get another from Kmart, or steal from your car.
"RnR" <rnrtexas@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gi5283pnje5mhdgt7ggmlq1u7p8p3vp4k6@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:56:21 -0800, Steve <hde@wbn.inv> wrote:
>
>>
>>Ran across this info, does it seem about right?
>>
>>
>>http://www.visitinggeeks.com/press_room_heatwave.html
>>
>>A typical computer with a 15-21 inch LCD monitor will be well
>>protected with a 500VA UPS. A larger monitor and extra peripherals
>>such as powered speakers, cable modem, wireless router or external
>>DVD, CD or hard drives, require increasing the UPS to 650VA or larger.
>>To protect just the computer, excluding any peripherals, a 350VA is
>>acceptable. You can expect to pay around $40 for a 350VA UPS and
>>upwards of $400 for a 1500VA UPS.
>
>
> I've got several ups's but I don't claim to be any guru on the
> subject. That said I have read that 350VA is probably the minimum you
> want. I seem to recall seeing most often 500VA to 750VA on sale so I
> gather this is the sweet spot for typical users. Of course there are
> others but I don't see them advertised as much. I haven't kept up on
> prices so I can't say for sure but my guess is your numbers seem
> reasonable. Of course you can shop on line to get up to date costs.
> Do keep in mind that you don't have to have all your stuff plugged
> into it and excessive VA will give you more battery time which you may
> or may not need. One other thing I'd consider is whether the battery
> in it can easily be found so when it comes time to replace it, you can
> do so easily. Also you might want to know ahead of time, what the
> battery cost will be (just for peace of mind; cost might change years
> later and don't be surprised if the battery cost is 50% or greater vs.
> the entire unit cost). Last, I've read that the typical ups battery
> lasts about 3 or 4 years (of course ymmv; mine are too new yet to tell
> you but I noted the date on them).
>
I just replaced the batteries on 3 Belkin UPS's. If you can measure
dimensions, you can save a lot by purchasing your replacement batteries from
an electronic supply house (I used either Digikey or Jameco, I forget which)
rather than the manufacturer. Turned out to be the exact same brand and
model, too. FWIW, all three UPS's were about 4 years old. I also use
APC...they are newer and so far no battery replacements on them.
For the OP: make sure you get shutdown software as well, otherwise your UPS
won't do you any good on an unattended PC or if you have too many to shut
down manually.
> One question I have for someone else is, how do you know when your
> batteries are going down? Do you begin to see less reserved battery
> time or do they suddenly just show zero reserved battery time??
A UPS actually MAKES electricity, so the computer continues running even
if there is a total failure (even if you pull the UPS plug out of the
wall). This gives you time to shut down normally, and prevents data
loss due to power failure in the middle of disk writes, etc.
Steve wrote:
> Ok, here's a stupid question - other than being a better surge
> protector, what does a UPS do? Does it come into play only if you
> happen to be working at the computer when a surge hits? Then you get
> a couple minutes to save your work and log off? Any other benefits?
>
>
On Jun 27, 1:53 am, Steve <h...@wbn.inv> wrote:
> Ok, here's a stupid question - other than being a better surge
> protector, what does a UPS do? Does it come into play only if you
> happen to be working at the computer when a surge hits? Then you get
> a couple minutes to save your work and log off? Any other benefits?
Your original citation (visitinggeeks.com) is classic myths. That
author clearly does not have electrical knowledge. For starters,
brownouts do not harm computers. One power supply function: provide
all voltages to computer (even enough to perform a startup) when
incandescent bulbs are only 40% intensity - a severe brownout. If
power supply cannot maintain voltage (lights dim even lower), then
power supply 'system' simply shuts down computer. No damage. Even
demanded in Intel ATX specs and was required in 1970s industry
standards. Just another in a very long list of functions inside a
power supply even 35 years ago.
What does a plug-in UPS do? It provides power long enough to save
data. Typically has no hardware protection functions. It connects
computer directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Does
that relay perform surge protection? Of course not.
It does claim surge protection. But color glossy sheets are where
half truths are promoted to the naive. For example, it does not
protect from a type of surge that typically does hardware damage. Its
protector component is typically so small as to be near zero
protection. But it does have protection. Just enough to post a half
truth on color glossies.
Go to its numerical specs - where useful numbers are found. No
numbers? Then a fact does not exist. Specs do not list protection
from each type of surge and numbers for protection? Otherwise you
might learn of many types of surges - including one that typically
does damage.
If numerical specs are useful, then a number defines power output
when in battery backup mode. For example, this 120 volt UPS outputs
two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between
those square waves. Is that conditioned power? Since they are
selling products to layman whose eyes glaze over when the numbers
appear, then those layman don't bother to learn how 'dirty' that UPS
power is in battery backup mode. Those square waves are then called
'modified sine wave'. Again, 'experts' using 'word association' would
assume that is 'clean' electricity.
A "modified sine wave" may be so 'dirty' as to even harm some small
electric motors. But computers are far more robust. Computers
already contain internal protection making that 200 volt square wave
and 200+ volt spike irrelevant. A UPS that outputs such dirty power
is also called 'computer grade UPS'. Color glossies let the naive
assume that means 'clean' power. Sold by half truths and myths.
Many types of UPSes exist. Ones that perform various 'power
conditioning' include building wide systems located when power enters
a building - including a dedicated earth ground. No wonder they cost
$thousands. Where is that dedicated earthing wire on a plug-in UPS?
Does not exist since it performs only one UPS function - protect from
data loss.
How cheap are those plug-in UPSes? Well a car battery used every
day and exposed to all weather should last seven or nine years. Plug-
in UPSes are made so cheaply that its battery typically dies in three
years. Often costs more to replace a battery than to buy a new UPS.
They are that cheap - have that few actual functions. Sold on
numerous myths.
For reliable service, consider a laptop that already contains a UPS
and typically consumes less power. Need longer battery backup? Most
laptops can also support a second battery.
Do not chain batteries to a UPS. Risk from explosion and fire is
created. Again, serious UPSes costs many $thousands for good reason.
Well, ok, it makes AC electricity (from DC electricity ....)
You know, when I make a cake I still need "ingredients". Just think of
the battery as an ingredient for making AC electricity. If you are
nice, I might share the recipie.
Notan wrote:
> Barry Watzman wrote:
>> A UPS actually MAKES electricity
>
> <snip>
>
> Hmmm.
>
> And I always thought it was just a device used to manage energy stored in
> a battery.
>
Re: UPS recommendations? 
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