It ended up costing more than I thought, but it shipped for free. (And
in most of the other cases, the savings in purchase price would have
been made up for in shipping costs.
The old system had about 54 hours of use before lightning blew the
board away. At least that is per the hour counter that is reported in
the hard drive's SMART data, and the date codes on the drive match the
rest of the system, so I have no reason to believe that it doesn't
reflect the amount of the time the system operated as a whole. :-(
When I get it all back together, it should be a wonderful system. The
CPU is an AMD Athlon 64 x2 "Brisbane" 3600+. Reviews of this processor
all seem to be excellent, especially in terms of overclocking (which I
won't be doing).
The new board went in smoothly, although getting all the cables to stay out
of the way was something of a chore. (I could not remove all the cables
easily, so I worked around them.) I don't know if the board I got is new or
what, but it sure is clean. Not a trace of dust on it anywhere that I could
find. It also smelled new.
Upon first power up, I tried to change settings in system setup and found it
was locked with an admin password. Fortunately, the password clear jumper
proved effective. This is the only thing that makes me think it isn't a new
board.
Now that the system runs, DBAN is clearing Vista off the hard drive. I'm
thinking XP64, but I'm not sure yet. I need to find the time-limited
evaluation copy I have and see if I can find drivers for everything.
My only complaint is the lack of PS/2 ports, since my trusty Raritan KVM
switch only supports PS/2 port connectors. I wonder if a USB to PS/2 adapter
would work with it?
On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:34:16 GMT, "William R. Walsh"
<newsgroups1@idontwantjunqueemail.walshcomptech.co m> wrote:
>> I got my replacement motherboard today.
>
>The new board went in smoothly, although getting all the cables to stay out
>of the way was something of a chore. (I could not remove all the cables
>easily, so I worked around them.) I don't know if the board I got is new or
>what, but it sure is clean. Not a trace of dust on it anywhere that I could
>find. It also smelled new.
>
>Upon first power up, I tried to change settings in system setup and found it
>was locked with an admin password. Fortunately, the password clear jumper
>proved effective. This is the only thing that makes me think it isn't a new
>board.
>
>Now that the system runs, DBAN is clearing Vista off the hard drive. I'm
>thinking XP64, but I'm not sure yet. I need to find the time-limited
>evaluation copy I have and see if I can find drivers for everything.
>
>My only complaint is the lack of PS/2 ports, since my trusty Raritan KVM
>switch only supports PS/2 port connectors. I wonder if a USB to PS/2 adapter
>would work with it?
>
>William
>
William, if you don't already have this, you might want to consider a
UPS or good surge protector for this pc. I'm not going to say it
guarantees 100% safety but I think it will provide a lot more safety
than without. For me, I went with UPSs because I felt it was
important that we have time to save our work (college / business
related stuff) because the other way might be a lot more painful than
the cost of the UPSs <g>. I even put a UPS on our internet
connection so if we are on line, we don't lose our connection abruptly
due to power loss.
> William, if you don't already have this, you might want to consider
> a UPS or good surge protector for this pc.
I certainly do have them, and this system is on one. This wasn't my
PC. I was asked to confirm whether it was dead or not. The former
owner had already purchased a new computer, so I asked if I could have
this one and told them I thought I would probably repair it. They
didn't care.
Here was the problem...the former owner had long since upgraded to
high speed Internet access. They hadn't even thought anything of
leaving their modem connected, and that was precisely how the system
got bit--the cores of just about every component on the modem was
blown completely out.
That's how I've seen just about every case of lightning damage take
place--right through the modem. Only once have I ever seen a power
supply that got bit.
Looking at how the dead board behaves as compared to the good one, it
looks like the nVidia south bridge took the brunt of it. On the good
board, this stays cool. On the bad board, it gets blazing hot, which
seems like a result of a short caused by damage to the silicon wafer
inside.
I have a Sony system for repair here and it experienced something similar. With
this system, the power spike from a thunderstorm came through the Ethernet
connector on the motherboard, according to the owner who is an electronics
engineer by trade and knows this stuff pretty well. The board tries to POST,
but does not get too far. His router and DSL modem also took the hit.
.... Ben Myers
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:30:16 -0700 (PDT), "William R. Walsh"
<wm_walsh@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hi!
>
>> William, if you don't already have this, you might want to consider
>> a UPS or good surge protector for this pc.
>
>I certainly do have them, and this system is on one. This wasn't my
>PC. I was asked to confirm whether it was dead or not. The former
>owner had already purchased a new computer, so I asked if I could have
>this one and told them I thought I would probably repair it. They
>didn't care.
>
>Here was the problem...the former owner had long since upgraded to
>high speed Internet access. They hadn't even thought anything of
>leaving their modem connected, and that was precisely how the system
>got bit--the cores of just about every component on the modem was
>blown completely out.
>
>That's how I've seen just about every case of lightning damage take
>place--right through the modem. Only once have I ever seen a power
>supply that got bit.
>
>Looking at how the dead board behaves as compared to the good one, it
>looks like the nVidia south bridge took the brunt of it. On the good
>board, this stays cool. On the bad board, it gets blazing hot, which
>seems like a result of a short caused by damage to the silicon wafer
>inside.
>
>William
> I have a Sony system for repair here and it experienced something
> similar. With this system, the power spike from a thunderstorm
> came through the Ethernet connector on the motherboard
> His router and DSL modem also took the hit.
Someone once came to me with a Dimension 4600 that was not POSTing at
all. Not knowing what happened to it, and finding that all the other
components were fine, with no signs of visible damage anywhere, I said
they should take it to Dell since the machine was still under warranty
at the time.
Dell repaired the computer under warranty, and when the owner got it
back, he reported that his Internet connection did not work. Around
that time I discovered that his DSL modem had picked up a rattle.
Taking it apart revealed that it had been basically obliterated by a
lightning strike.
Lightning is funny stuff. I've seen it leave a houseful of electronics
unscathed while it caused an old clunky box fan to catch on fire.
I finished installing a copy of Windows XP Professional on the newly
revived DimE521 last night, and it's really very snappy. (It is also
now the fastest/newest system I own.) One thing that had me stopped
for a while was the system's unwillingness to boot from the hard drive
after installing XP. All it would do was try to boot from the network
interface unless I forced it to boot from the hard drive using the F12
boot menu. I didn't know what to do about this, and adjusting the boot
order did not help, so I disabled the onboard NIC in setup.
(Somewhere along this point, I noticed that the system setup program
let me input the service tag number.)
After that, the system told me it was in manufacturing mode (!!) and
that I needed to press ALT-F to exit. After I did, it rebooted, the
onboard NIC was re-enabled, and the system has booted normally ever
since. Hmmm...I wonder if Dell feeds their software preload to the
system by booting it from a network?
Anyway, after finding a USB to PS/2 adapter, the system is running
great. I flashed the BIOS to the latest version (it was at 0.1.2 and
now is at 1.1.1 or something similar.) and that solved a problem with
the front cooling fan wanting to rev up to maximum throttle at times.
On Jun 19, 9:30 am, "William R. Walsh" <wm_wa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That's how I've seen just about every case of lightning damage take
> place--right through the modem. Only once have I ever seen a power
> supply that got bit.
Why does lightning enter on modem when phone line and cable wire
routinely have surge protection - installed for free?
The assumption - it entered on communication wire, created damage,
and stopped? Electricity does not work that way. First, electricity
flows simultaneously through everything in a path - a complete
circuit. Then something in that path fails later.
If a surge entered on phone line, then what else was also conducting
that surge? What else was also in that path to earth?
Surges that damage modems are most often incoming from AC mains.
First, wires highest on utility poles get struck. Phone and cable
wires are protected from strikes by AC electric wires. AC wires are
typical surge sources - not communication wires.
Second, AC electric wires typically have no properly earthed
protection. Both telephone and cable have earthed protection -
installed for free. Did you know of that protection? Why would a surge
ignore properly earthed protection to enter a building?
Third, what is the outgoing path to earth? A surge incoming on AC
mains has an excellent earth connection via telephone or cable wires.
A surge enters computer motherboard, out via modem, and then to earth
via a cable or phone wire. Later, the weakest point fails – modem’s
communication wire side. A failed component only says it was part of
the surge path. That failed component can be either an incoming or
outgoing path. Surge need not be incoming on a phone wire to cause
modem damage.
Your telco’s $multi-million computer, connected to overhead wires
all over town, will suffer typically 100 surges during every
thunderstorm. It must never suffer damage. How does every telco
operate during all thunderstorms without damage? Every incoming wire
gets earthed before entering the building. Separation between
protector and electronics increases protection. Near zero distance
from protector to single point earth ground provides effective
protection. Surge need not damage the $multi-million computer if
every surge is earthed before entering the building. Earthing (not
stopping or absorbing surge energy) defines effective surge
protection.
Will a power strip or UPS stop or absorb what three miles of sky
could not stop? RnR says yes. Neither that UPS nor power strip
protector claim to protect from the typically destructive surge. RnR
is invited to provide numeric specs that claim such protection. He
cannot. The UPS, et al only provide protection from a typically non-
destructive surge.
Many assume the surge enters on a wire, causes damage, and stops.
Of course not. Electricity does not work that way. Why is a modem
damaged? Answer begins by learning both the incoming and outgoing
electrical paths. Most common incoming path is AC electric.
Protection means earthing before a surge can enter the building.
Neither that UPS nor power strip even claim to provide protection from
the typically destructive surge. Did you know both cable and phone
wires already have surge protection where their wire enters a
building? Why not?
Lightning is not capricious. Why are some appliances harmed and
others not? Well, which appliance made a better connection to earth?
Once answered, then lightning did the predictable thing. Why was both
modem and computer damaged? Follow a typically destructive path from
AC mains, through computer, out via modem, to earth ground.
If lightning passed through computer, then why was memory not
harmed. Memory had an incoming lightning path but no outgoing path to
earth. Nothing capricious. Lightning did as electricity does -
requires both an incoming and outgoing path; else no current flows.
w_tom wrote:
> On Jun 19, 9:30 am, "William R. Walsh" <wm_wa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> That's how I've seen just about every case of lightning damage take
>> place--right through the modem. Only once have I ever seen a power
>> supply that got bit.
..
The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is in a
guide from the IEEE at: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.
..
> The assumption - it entered on communication wire, created damage,
> and stopped? Electricity does not work that way. First, electricity
> flows simultaneously through everything in a path - a complete
> circuit.
..
According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.
One cause is if the cable and phone entry protectors are not connected
with a *short* ground wire to the earthing wire at the power service. A
long wire allows a high voltage between the power and signal ground
references. The IEEE guide has an illustration of that starting pdf page 40.
And if you use a plug-in suppressor all interconnected equipment needs
to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires
need to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone,
also need to go through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through
the suppressor also prevents damaging voltages between power and signal
wires. These multiport suppressors are described in both guides.
..
> Surges that damage modems are most often incoming from AC mains.
..
Can come in on phone or cable or power wires (and some other routes).
..
> Will a power strip or UPS stop or absorb what three miles of sky
> could not stop? RnR says yes.
..
Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. No
one I know says they work by "stopping" or "absorbing". The IEEE guide
explains they work by limiting the voltage to the common ground at the
suppressor on all wires (signal and power). (Plug-in suppressors do not
work primarily by earthing. The guide explains earthing occurs
elsewhere.) (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).
A UPS may or may not have the same protection as a plug-in suppressor.
High surge ratings are more readily available with plug-in suppressors.
Any suppressor in the US should be listed under UL1449.
On Jun 22, 1:55*am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. No
> one I know says they work by "stopping" or "absorbing". The IEEE guide
> explains they work by *limiting the voltage to the common ground at the
> suppressor on all wires (signal and power).
Bud claimed plug-in protectors clamp to nothing. Surge energy
magically dissappears. That sales pitch did not work. Bud promotes
plug-in protectors. If you learn that earthing provides protection,
then profits will be harmed. Every Bud citation says earthing
provides protection. His first citation from the NIST bluntly says a
protector must be earthed to be effective. On Abode page 8:
> What these protective devices do is neither
> suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert
> it to ground, where it can do no harm.
Later in page 19:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your
> surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground. The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.
Bud says a protector will clamp surges. Where does that energy get
dissipated? Bud says clamping makes that energy disappear. But Bud's
second citation: page 42 Figure 8 defined reality. A surge not
earthed when entering the building, instead, finds earth ground 8000
volts destructively through the adjacent TV. Bud says that will not
happen. However even cable companies recommend removing that plug-in
protector that does nothing useful AND can create surge damage to
adjacent appliances - page 42 Figure 8.
Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or
$150. Say anything necessary to dispute what every responsible source
says. Earthing provides the surge protection. Earthing a TV cable
where it enter the building means protection inside that TV is not
overwhelmed by surges that destructively seek earth ground. Every Bud
citation shows why earthing (not a plug-in protector) provides
protection.
Ask Bud for the numeric spec from any plug-in protector that claims
protection. Bud cannot provide what does not exist. No plug-in
protector claims protection from the typically destructive surge. Bud
also will not provide that spec. Protection promoted by Bud - even
the manufacturer will not make that claim in spec numbers. Why?
Obviously, protection is defined by earthing. No earth ground means
no effective protection - and maybe damage to an adjacent TV - page 42
Figure 8.
w_tom wrote:
> On Jun 22, 1:55 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
..
>> Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. No
>> one I know says they work by "stopping" or "absorbing". The IEEE guide
>> explains they work by limiting the voltage to the common ground at the
>> suppressor on all wires (signal and power).
>
> Bud claimed plug-in protectors clamp to nothing.
..
Bud repeats what the IEEE guide says.
..
> Surge energy
> magically dissappears.
..
Repeating:
"The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere."
..
> Bud promotes
> plug-in protectors.
..
I promote only accurate information. Discussion is mostly about plug-in
suppressors because w_ spreads nonsense about them.
..
> His first citation from the NIST bluntly says a
> protector must be earthed to be effective. On Abode page 8:
..
What does the NIST guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
"They are the "easiest solution".
..
> Bud says a protector will clamp surges. Where does that energy get
> dissipated? Bud says clamping makes that energy disappear.
..
w_ is fond of inventing opinions. Repeating again:
"The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere."
..
> But Bud's
> second citation: page 42 Figure 8 defined reality. A surge not
> earthed when entering the building, instead, finds earth ground 8000
> volts destructively through the adjacent TV.
..
The illustration in the IEEE guide has a surge coming in on a cable
service. There are 2 TVs, one is on a plug-in suppressor. The plug-in
suppressor protects TV1, connected to it.
The point of the illustration for the IEEE, and anyone who can think, is
"to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
w_ says suppressors must only be at the service panel. In this example a
service panel suppressor would provide absolutely *NO* protection. The
problem is the wire connecting the cable entry block to the power
service ‘ground’ is too long. The IEEE guide says in that case "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector."
..
> However even cable companies recommend removing that plug-in
> protector that does nothing useful AND can create surge damage to
> adjacent appliances - page 42 Figure 8.
..
It is simply a lie that the suppressor at TV1 in the IEEE example
produced any damage at TV2. Without the plug-in suppressor the surge
voltage at TV2 is 10,000V. With the suppressor at TV1 the voltage at TV2
is 8,000V. The point for the IEEE is "to protect TV2, a second multiport
protector located at TV2 is required."
..
> Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts.
..
I recently bought a major brand plug-in suppressor with ratings of 590J
and 30,000A per MOV, 1770J and 90,000A total. Provide a source for a
30,000A/590J MOV for $0.10.
..
> Bud
> also will not provide that spec.
..
Provided often and ignored. For instance above.
..
> No earth ground means
> no effective protection
..
w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
well earthed) can not possibly work.
Repeating:
"The IEEE guide explains they work by limiting the voltage to the
common ground at the suppressor on all wires (signal and power).
(Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing. The guide
explains earthing occurs elsewhere.) (Read the guide starting pdf page 40)."
Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
Read the sources.
Never seen - any source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
are NOT effective.
Never answered - embarrassing questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the IEEE guide say in the example above "the only effective
way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector."
- Where is a link to a 30,000A and 590Joule rated MOV for $0.10.
Dimension E521 revival... 
Linear Mode
