brand new Dell XPS 420 with insufficient power supply capacity

Anyone else here order a new XPS 420
with the nVidia 8800 video cards ?

According to nVidia, their MINIMUM
recommended power supply is 450 watts.

Dell seems to think "oh it works with
the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".

I currently have a case open with their
"tech support" and waiting for a call
back on this issue.

Running a power supply load calculator
on nVidia's website for the way the
XPS420 is configured, the number it
spit out is 650 watts.

I can see no valid engineering argument
that would support the inclusion of a
375 watt power supply in a typical XPS420
configuration (other than the bean counters
directing the tech people that the "average"
consumer won't notice and they can get
away with it). Only problem is, the target
demographic for this machine are (presumably)
a technically savvy audience.

Dell's own web blogs, apparently contain
other buyers who have run into the same
discovery on receiving their unit and opening
up the case.

Anyone here have any experience with this
scenario ?

I didn't order for just that reason - didn't want the hassle of having
to swap out power supplies with a supposedly hi-end machine. Although
in the tech specs Dell says you get an upgraded power supply with the
8800 card...still underpowered according to nVidia though. FWIW I
noticed Dell has also been offering the nVidia 8600 GTS in the Vostro
400 box even though it only comes with a 300W power supply and nVidia
recommends minimum of 350W.

from Dell's tech specs for the XPS 420:
Power
375 W (standard), 425 W (with nVidia GeForce 8800GTX graphics)




On Jan 5, 2:43 pm, "TinMan" <T...@OZ.gov.edu> wrote:
> Anyone else here order a new XPS 420
> with the nVidia 8800 video cards ?
>
> According to nVidia, their MINIMUM
> recommended power supply is 450 watts.
>
> Dell seems to think "oh it works with
> the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".
>
> I currently have a case open with their
> "tech support" and waiting for a call
> back on this issue.
>
> Running a power supply load calculator
> on nVidia's website for the way the
> XPS420 is configured, the number it
> spit out is 650 watts.
>
> I can see no valid engineering argument
> that would support the inclusion of a
> 375 watt power supply in a typical XPS420
> configuration (other than the bean counters
> directing the tech people that the "average"
> consumer won't notice and they can get
> away with it). Only problem is, the target
> demographic for this machine are (presumably)
> a technically savvy audience.
>
> Dell's own web blogs, apparently contain
> other buyers who have run into the same
> discovery on receiving their unit and opening
> up the case.
>
> Anyone here have any experience with this
> scenario ?

Dell makes this more confusing than it needs to be.

First, Dell rates their power supplies differently than everyone else.
The industry uses peak output, so a 450W power supply can sustain that
only for a short period of time.
Dell rates theirs using sustained power output, so the 375W power supply
is closer to a 500 or 600W peak power supply.

Also, the 420 is available with two different power supplies. I can't
remember how to get the better one, but I think it is to start with one
of the more expensive configurations.

I've run incredible amounts of power hogs in my 410 (including an 8600
and 6 hard drives) with no problems.

Tom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TinMan [mailto:TMO@OZ.gov.edu]
> Posted At: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:43 PM
> Posted To: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell
> Conversation: brand new Dell XPS 420 with insufficient power supply
> capacity
> Subject: brand new Dell XPS 420 with insufficient power supply
capacity
>
>
>
> Anyone else here order a new XPS 420
> with the nVidia 8800 video cards ?
>
> According to nVidia, their MINIMUM
> recommended power supply is 450 watts.
>
> Dell seems to think "oh it works with
> the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".
>
> I currently have a case open with their
> "tech support" and waiting for a call
> back on this issue.
>
> Running a power supply load calculator
> on nVidia's website for the way the
> XPS420 is configured, the number it
> spit out is 650 watts.
>
> I can see no valid engineering argument
> that would support the inclusion of a
> 375 watt power supply in a typical XPS420
> configuration (other than the bean counters
> directing the tech people that the "average"
> consumer won't notice and they can get
> away with it). Only problem is, the target
> demographic for this machine are (presumably)
> a technically savvy audience.
>
> Dell's own web blogs, apparently contain
> other buyers who have run into the same
> discovery on receiving their unit and opening
> up the case.
>
> Anyone here have any experience with this
> scenario ?

"Tom Scales" <tjscales@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1F2CA3BF813540E2BB9F4A14FA13FE20@M2010...
> Dell makes this more confusing than it needs to be.
>
> First, Dell rates their power supplies differently than everyone else.
> The industry uses peak output, so a 450W power supply can sustain that
> only for a short period of time.
> Dell rates theirs using sustained power output, so the 375W power supply
> is closer to a 500 or 600W peak power supply.
>
> Also, the 420 is available with two different power supplies. I can't
> remember how to get the better one, but I think it is to start with one
> of the more expensive configurations.
>
> I've run incredible amounts of power hogs in my 410 (including an 8600
> and 6 hard drives) with no problems.
>
> Tom
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TinMan [mailto:TMO@OZ.gov.edu]
> > Posted At: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:43 PM
> > Posted To: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell
> > Conversation: brand new Dell XPS 420 with insufficient power supply
> > capacity
> > Subject: brand new Dell XPS 420 with insufficient power supply
> capacity
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone else here order a new XPS 420
> > with the nVidia 8800 video cards ?
> >
> > According to nVidia, their MINIMUM
> > recommended power supply is 450 watts.
> >
> > Dell seems to think "oh it works with
> > the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".
> >
> > I currently have a case open with their
> > "tech support" and waiting for a call
> > back on this issue.
> >
> > Running a power supply load calculator
> > on nVidia's website for the way the
> > XPS420 is configured, the number it
> > spit out is 650 watts.
> >
> > I can see no valid engineering argument
> > that would support the inclusion of a
> > 375 watt power supply in a typical XPS420
> > configuration (other than the bean counters
> > directing the tech people that the "average"
> > consumer won't notice and they can get
> > away with it). Only problem is, the target
> > demographic for this machine are (presumably)
> > a technically savvy audience.
> >
> > Dell's own web blogs, apparently contain
> > other buyers who have run into the same
> > discovery on receiving their unit and opening
> > up the case.
> >
> > Anyone here have any experience with this
> > scenario ?


Well I got a call back from the Dell representative.
They will be shipping me the new 425 watt supply so
I can swap out the undersized 375 watt unit.

In their own specifications, it states the nVidia
8800 REQUIRES the higher wattage 425 watt supply.
Why this was not done with my configuration I have
no idea (and it's maxed out in terms of options
that suck up power).

Seems from the numerous web blogs/forums I've been
examining on this subject, some buyers simply call
in their order to confirm the correct power supply
is ordered. I made the mistake of doing it online with
no direct interaction with a sales rep.

So moral of story, if you order a XPS420 with the
nVidia 8800, better talk to a real person to make
sure you get the higher wattage 425 watt supply !

"TinMan" <TMO@OZ.gov.edu> wrote in message
news:y8mdnedEpqMjQOLanZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>
> Anyone else here order a new XPS 420
> with the nVidia 8800 video cards ?
>
> According to nVidia, their MINIMUM
> recommended power supply is 450 watts.
>
> Dell seems to think "oh it works with
> the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".
>
> I currently have a case open with their
> "tech support" and waiting for a call
> back on this issue.
>
> Running a power supply load calculator
> on nVidia's website for the way the
> XPS420 is configured, the number it
> spit out is 650 watts.
>
> I can see no valid engineering argument
> that would support the inclusion of a
> 375 watt power supply in a typical XPS420
> configuration (other than the bean counters
> directing the tech people that the "average"
> consumer won't notice and they can get
> away with it). Only problem is, the target
> demographic for this machine are (presumably)
> a technically savvy audience.
>
> Dell's own web blogs, apparently contain
> other buyers who have run into the same
> discovery on receiving their unit and opening
> up the case.
>
> Anyone here have any experience with this
> scenario ?
>
>


Has anyone posted that it does not work?

Hi!

> According to nVidia, their MINIMUM recommended power supply is
> 450 watts.

> Dell seems to think "oh it works with the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".

One thing to consider is the quality of the supply. A lot of PC power
supplies on the market can only manage their rated capacity for a short
period of time. Even if the supply can only stand the maximum load for a few
seconds, a lot of people will buy such a supply over more conservatively
rated units thinking that they got a "better deal" in some way.

Another point to look at is what Dell and nVidia are using as factors for
the type of power supply they recommend. nVidia may come to their conclusion
by saying that the card could pull that much power for a second or two, or
by making the assumption that a bigger power supply will have a stronger fan
in it that cools the card and system better. Dell--on the other hand--is
building complete working systems. Their engineers have no doubt put a lot
of thought into power and cooling.

I'd say the system will most likely run without issue. You can also tell a
lot about the quality of a power supply by weight and size. As an example, I
have a 1992-era IBM PS/2 Server 95 power supply that is rated for 399.1
watts worth of output power. I really do believe that it would be able to
deliver that much power for a long time, if not continuously. I haven't seen
any modern power supplies that I believe to be capable of doing the same,
even with the improvements in design and circuitry.

William

"William R. Walsh" <newsgroups1@idontwantjunqueemail.walshcomptech.co m>
wrote in message news:HSWfj.287221$Fc.245291@attbi_s21...
> Hi!
>
> > According to nVidia, their MINIMUM recommended power supply is
> > 450 watts.
>
> > Dell seems to think "oh it works with the 375 watt unit, so it's ok".
>
> One thing to consider is the quality of the supply. A lot of PC power
> supplies on the market can only manage their rated capacity for a short
> period of time. Even if the supply can only stand the maximum load for a
few
> seconds, a lot of people will buy such a supply over more conservatively
> rated units thinking that they got a "better deal" in some way.
>
> Another point to look at is what Dell and nVidia are using as factors for
> the type of power supply they recommend. nVidia may come to their
conclusion
> by saying that the card could pull that much power for a second or two, or
> by making the assumption that a bigger power supply will have a stronger
fan
> in it that cools the card and system better. Dell--on the other hand--is
> building complete working systems. Their engineers have no doubt put a lot
> of thought into power and cooling.


I presume you've never worked AS a project engineer at a large
corporation.

The ASSumption you make is NOT valid in "real world" engineering
departments where we're forced by the bean counters to push product
out the door that might minimally meet some obscure specification
that's further grayed by the marketing department.

It's not uncommon for engineering management folks (who have to
make business decisions), to release a system that - 'in theory'
will have minimal warranty claims based on the target demographic
for the product.

So if only, say 15% (made up number) actually complain about the
product not meeting specification, you're still ahead of the
game. The rest of the people will be totally clueless and not
care that they're buying a marginally designed product. By the
time they might notice, it'll be out of warranty !

I don't share your optimistic view that Dell engineers put "a
lot of thought into power and cooling". Their own statements on
the power supply issue insinuate cost reduction (translation -
PROFIT), was a key factor in their decision to make the PSU's
proprietary.

I'm surprised there's no consumer outrage over it (didn't our
esteemed justice dept - under leadership of elliot spitzer -
who wanted to give illegal aliens drivers licenses - waste our
tax dollars prosecuting Microsoft - on the very issue of
"consumer choice").


>
> I'd say the system will most likely run without issue. You can also tell a
> lot about the quality of a power supply by weight and size. As an example,
I
> have a 1992-era IBM PS/2 Server 95 power supply that is rated for 399.1
> watts worth of output power. I really do believe that it would be able to
> deliver that much power for a long time, if not continuously. I haven't
seen
> any modern power supplies that I believe to be capable of doing the same,
> even with the improvements in design and circuitry.
>
> William

Have you ever seen DEC VAX power supplies ? man, those puppies
were BUILT like tanks ! they could crank out enough amps to run
a welder !!

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:02:01 -0500, "TinMan" <TMO@OZ.gov.edu> wrote:

>I'm surprised there's no consumer outrage over it (didn't our
>esteemed justice dept - under leadership of elliot spitzer -
>who wanted to give illegal aliens drivers licenses - waste our
>tax dollars prosecuting Microsoft - on the very issue of
>"consumer choice").

He was attorney general, now governor of New York.

He wasn't with the Justice Deparement.

He an egomaniacal *******.

WaIIy wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 21:02:01 -0500, "TinMan" <TMO@OZ.gov.edu> wrote:
>
>> I'm surprised there's no consumer outrage over it (didn't our
>> esteemed justice dept - under leadership of elliot spitzer -
>> who wanted to give illegal aliens drivers licenses - waste our
>> tax dollars prosecuting Microsoft - on the very issue of
>> "consumer choice").
>
> He was attorney general, now governor of New York.
>
> He wasn't with the Justice Deparement.
>
> He an egomaniacal *******.

The guy the OP is referring to is Eliot Spitzer <minor nit>.

He's a politician, so isn't calling him an "egomaniacal *******"
redundant? How does that differentiate him from the rest of the pack?

TinMan wrote:

<snip>

> Have you ever seen DEC VAX power supplies ? man, those puppies
> were BUILT like tanks ! they could crank out enough amps to run
> a welder !!

Things were always better before, e.g., "you should have been here last
week/month/year, when someone caught/trapped/saw a huge xxx".


"The older I get, the better I was" (I have a t-shirt that says that
very thing)