Random screen freezes with P4P800-E

Hardware: 3 year old ASUS P4P800-E, Intel 2.8 ghz hyperthread, 2 gb RAM, Audigy
II sound card, ATI Radeon 7800 AGP video card, all onboard USB disabled--use
cards for USB, Hauppauge TV card, modem card

Software: Windows XP Pro SP2, all anti-virus programs up to date

In the past week I have started to see random screen freezes--no mouse movement,
keystrokes do nothing, time stops updating, but the computer doesn't crash. I
have to reboot, and then it might be OK for a while, or it might not. The
freezes are independent of the programs I am running.

I have made no recent changes in hardware or software other than usual software
updates.

In the BIOS, both the MB and CPU temperatures are fine, in the 40C range.

The computer has frozen on boot to Windows Safe Mode, and on one occasion froze
when I was in the BIOS. I tried to run a DOS based memory check, booting from
the A drive--it worked for a while, then froze.

I think this must be a hardware problem, but I don't know where to start
looking. My guess would be the video card rather than the processor or memory,
but that is only a guess. If it is the MB, how do I find out? And, if it is the
MB, is it worth replacing a P4P800E now? If not, what new MB would you recommend
so that I wouldn't have to replace the processor and memory? Or should I just go
out and finally buy a Mac with Windows capability? :-)

Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Ken

Your motherboard appears to be dying, according to the symptoms. Time for
that new Apple you always wanted to dual boot....

--
---------------------
DaveW

---------------------
"KenV" <kvatz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:Pu6dnVDMt4ghH0DbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@megapath.net ...
> Hardware: 3 year old ASUS P4P800-E, Intel 2.8 ghz hyperthread, 2 gb RAM,
> Audigy II sound card, ATI Radeon 7800 AGP video card, all onboard USB
> disabled--use cards for USB, Hauppauge TV card, modem card
>
> Software: Windows XP Pro SP2, all anti-virus programs up to date
>
> In the past week I have started to see random screen freezes--no mouse
> movement, keystrokes do nothing, time stops updating, but the computer
> doesn't crash. I have to reboot, and then it might be OK for a while, or
> it might not. The freezes are independent of the programs I am running.
>
> I have made no recent changes in hardware or software other than usual
> software updates.
>
> In the BIOS, both the MB and CPU temperatures are fine, in the 40C range.
>
> The computer has frozen on boot to Windows Safe Mode, and on one occasion
> froze when I was in the BIOS. I tried to run a DOS based memory check,
> booting from the A drive--it worked for a while, then froze.
>
> I think this must be a hardware problem, but I don't know where to start
> looking. My guess would be the video card rather than the processor or
> memory, but that is only a guess. If it is the MB, how do I find out? And,
> if it is the MB, is it worth replacing a P4P800E now? If not, what new MB
> would you recommend so that I wouldn't have to replace the processor and
> memory? Or should I just go out and finally buy a Mac with Windows
> capability? :-)
>
> Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ken

Dave,

It's true, I've always wanted the dual boot Mac, or at least in the year or
two it's been out. :-)

But--on the advice of our office computer guru, I reseated the 4 memory
chips and video card, and so far (about 3 hours), it hasn't frozen again. Do
you still think I'm going to get my Mac?

Ken


"DaveW" <nothing@bot.org> wrote in message
newsYudnS3vvvg4Q0DbnZ2dnUVZ_tmhnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Your motherboard appears to be dying, according to the symptoms. Time for
> that new Apple you always wanted to dual boot....
>
> --
> ---------------------
> DaveW
>
> ---------------------
> "KenV" <kvatz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:Pu6dnVDMt4ghH0DbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@megapath.net ...
>> Hardware: 3 year old ASUS P4P800-E, Intel 2.8 ghz hyperthread, 2 gb RAM,
>> Audigy II sound card, ATI Radeon 7800 AGP video card, all onboard USB
>> disabled--use cards for USB, Hauppauge TV card, modem card
>>
>> Software: Windows XP Pro SP2, all anti-virus programs up to date
>>
>> In the past week I have started to see random screen freezes--no mouse
>> movement, keystrokes do nothing, time stops updating, but the computer
>> doesn't crash. I have to reboot, and then it might be OK for a while, or
>> it might not. The freezes are independent of the programs I am running.
>>
>> I have made no recent changes in hardware or software other than usual
>> software updates.
>>
>> In the BIOS, both the MB and CPU temperatures are fine, in the 40C range.
>>
>> The computer has frozen on boot to Windows Safe Mode, and on one occasion
>> froze when I was in the BIOS. I tried to run a DOS based memory check,
>> booting from the A drive--it worked for a while, then froze.
>>
>> I think this must be a hardware problem, but I don't know where to start
>> looking. My guess would be the video card rather than the processor or
>> memory, but that is only a guess. If it is the MB, how do I find out?
>> And, if it is the MB, is it worth replacing a P4P800E now? If not, what
>> new MB would you recommend so that I wouldn't have to replace the
>> processor and memory? Or should I just go out and finally buy a Mac with
>> Windows capability? :-)
>>
>> Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Ken
>
>

Here's a followup that may help someone else having this problem.

Even after reseating the memory and cards, the freezes continued.

I called ASUS support. The first person told me it had to be the memory, or
the North bridge, and said if it wasn't the memory I would probably have to
send in the board for repair.

I swapped out the memory sticks, and it continued to freeze.

On the second call to ASUS support, a different tech said it was either the
board, the video card or the power supply. The video card seemed to be
functioning well otherwise--no pixels, etc.. The tech asked for the amp
numbers on the PS grid and said they were marginal for what I had in my
system, and that, in any case, the PS might be going bad.

I removed the Hauppauge TV card, which was running very hot, and also
disconnected one of my two CD ROM drives.

The computer has run now for 8 hours without a freeze, and I have ordered a
new power supply.

The good news is that the PS only cost me $105. The bad news is that now I
still don't get my Mac, unless someone here can convince my wife that I need
one, anyway.

Ken



"KenV" <kvnoatspamz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:fc6dnYWnysPge0DbnZ2dnUVZ_tCrnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Dave,
>
> It's true, I've always wanted the dual boot Mac, or at least in the year
> or two it's been out. :-)
>
> But--on the advice of our office computer guru, I reseated the 4 memory
> chips and video card, and so far (about 3 hours), it hasn't frozen again.
> Do you still think I'm going to get my Mac?
>
> Ken
>
>
> "DaveW" <nothing@bot.org> wrote in message
> newsYudnS3vvvg4Q0DbnZ2dnUVZ_tmhnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Your motherboard appears to be dying, according to the symptoms. Time
>> for that new Apple you always wanted to dual boot....
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------
>> DaveW
>>
>> ---------------------
>> "KenV" <kvatz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:Pu6dnVDMt4ghH0DbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@megapath.net ...
>>> Hardware: 3 year old ASUS P4P800-E, Intel 2.8 ghz hyperthread, 2 gb RAM,
>>> Audigy II sound card, ATI Radeon 7800 AGP video card, all onboard USB
>>> disabled--use cards for USB, Hauppauge TV card, modem card
>>>
>>> Software: Windows XP Pro SP2, all anti-virus programs up to date
>>>
>>> In the past week I have started to see random screen freezes--no mouse
>>> movement, keystrokes do nothing, time stops updating, but the computer
>>> doesn't crash. I have to reboot, and then it might be OK for a while, or
>>> it might not. The freezes are independent of the programs I am running.
>>>
>>> I have made no recent changes in hardware or software other than usual
>>> software updates.
>>>
>>> In the BIOS, both the MB and CPU temperatures are fine, in the 40C
>>> range.
>>>
>>> The computer has frozen on boot to Windows Safe Mode, and on one
>>> occasion froze when I was in the BIOS. I tried to run a DOS based memory
>>> check, booting from the A drive--it worked for a while, then froze.
>>>
>>> I think this must be a hardware problem, but I don't know where to start
>>> looking. My guess would be the video card rather than the processor or
>>> memory, but that is only a guess. If it is the MB, how do I find out?
>>> And, if it is the MB, is it worth replacing a P4P800E now? If not, what
>>> new MB would you recommend so that I wouldn't have to replace the
>>> processor and memory? Or should I just go out and finally buy a Mac with
>>> Windows capability? :-)
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>
>>
>

"KenV" <kvnoatspamz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:scSdnTnl07sqdHzbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> The computer has run now for 8 hours without a freeze, and I have ordered
> a new power supply.
>
> The good news is that the PS only cost me $105. The bad news is that now I
> still don't get my Mac, unless someone here can convince my wife that I
> need one, anyway.

Further follow-up:

(P4P800-E Deluxe, 2.8Ghz, 2 gigs memory, one AGP video card, one TV card,
sound card, modem)

The new power supply has been in place for 24 hours. I put back all the
memory, added back the TV card, and there have been no freezes, no matter
how much I push the machine.

Speedfan now shows all voltages (except Vcore) to be at or above specs all
the time, something that wasn't happening with the old PS. Vcore, which is
supposed to be 1.6V, runs between 1.54 and 1.6V. I don't know what, if
anything, that means.

The second ASUS tech rep was right. But how do you know when a power supply
is starting to fail, other than by ruling everything else out? I monitor the
voltages, but they were never that far below specs in the first place.

So, bottom line is I don't get my new Mac now.

I would be interested in hearing any comments about the power issues.

Ken

KenV wrote:
>
> "KenV" <kvnoatspamz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:scSdnTnl07sqdHzbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> The computer has run now for 8 hours without a freeze, and I have
>> ordered a new power supply.
>>
>> The good news is that the PS only cost me $105. The bad news is that
>> now I still don't get my Mac, unless someone here can convince my wife
>> that I need one, anyway.
>
> Further follow-up:
>
> (P4P800-E Deluxe, 2.8Ghz, 2 gigs memory, one AGP video card, one TV
> card, sound card, modem)
>
> The new power supply has been in place for 24 hours. I put back all the
> memory, added back the TV card, and there have been no freezes, no
> matter how much I push the machine.
>
> Speedfan now shows all voltages (except Vcore) to be at or above specs
> all the time, something that wasn't happening with the old PS. Vcore,
> which is supposed to be 1.6V, runs between 1.54 and 1.6V. I don't know
> what, if anything, that means.
>
> The second ASUS tech rep was right. But how do you know when a power
> supply is starting to fail, other than by ruling everything else out? I
> monitor the voltages, but they were never that far below specs in the
> first place.
>
> So, bottom line is I don't get my new Mac now.
>
> I would be interested in hearing any comments about the power issues.
>
> Ken

Vcore is allowed to "droop". It is load sensitive. On an Intel P4 board,
the spec sheet gives upper and lower load lines - in effect, a droopy
Vcore characteristic is mandated by Intel. When the CPU runs at 100% load,
a typical droop allocation might be 0.15V. So if the nominal voltage is 1.55V,
then the loaded voltage could be 1.40V and be good. You could well have
60 amps flowing from the multi-phase Vcore regulator circuit (those coils)
to the processor, and part of the voltage drop is in the copper planes
used to distribute the power. Many, many pins on the bottom of the processor,
carry the heavy current inside the processor. Ideally, to measure the voltage,
the hardware monitor chip should be connected to an unloaded Vcore signal
pin on the bottom of the processor, as that allows monitoring the actual
silicon die voltage. If you connect your multimeter to other parts of the
motherboard (like to the output of Vcore), you won't be able to see
the same voltage that the hardware monitor sees. For precise measurements,
you should use the monitoring pin provided on the processor.

On Asus boards, a typical observation is that the BIOS measured Vcore will
be about 0.060V higher than the nominal (printed on side of box) voltage
value. If nominal was 1.55V, then you'd expect to measure 1.61V when the
computer was idle.

As for PSU, the more test equipment you own, the more science you can apply.
If I found a plugin card running hot, or a PSU running hot, I own a
clamp-on DC ammeter, and can measure the consumption on the various
rails. If I remembered to make measurements when the computer was new,
it is then possible to use that baseline for later diagnostic comparison.

Some faults of PSUs can be dynamic, such that when the load suddenly
shifts, the voltage is out of whack. The motherboard monitor or even
your $30 multimeter, won't catch all problems like that. A storage scope
is a good thing to have, if you suspect a transient problem.

At some point, you just have to swap in a spare and see what happens :-)

Here's hoping that the PSU was the only problem. If the new PSU is
killed by your setup in a matter of weeks, then you'll have to look
at power consumption a bit more carefully.

Paul

"Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message news:fcfco5$ako$1@aioe.org...
>
> Here's hoping that the PSU was the only problem. If the new PSU is
> killed by your setup in a matter of weeks, then you'll have to look
> at power consumption a bit more carefully.

Paul,

Thanks for your detailed and very helpful reply. I understand it a lot
better now.

Your last point--suggesting that something in the system is causing the
power supply--is a concern.

When the ASUS rep first told me she thought it was the PSU failing, she
suggested that I take out some memory, which I did, disconnect the second CD
drive, which I did, and any cards that I don't use much. I decided to remove
the Hauppauge TV card that I hardly ever use, and when I removed it I noted
that it was running very hot. Maybe it always does--I hadn't noticed that
before. Obviously, if it is running hot, it is consuming a lot of power.
Could that TV card be causing PSU failure? Maybe I should just get rid of
it. Or is there something else, say, in the MB itself, that would be causing
the PSU to fail?

The new card has higher specs than did the old one, but the old one worked
well for a year and a half. I had replaced the one before that only because
the fan was too loud.

Ken

KenV wrote:
>
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message news:fcfco5$ako$1@aioe.org...
>>
>> Here's hoping that the PSU was the only problem. If the new PSU is
>> killed by your setup in a matter of weeks, then you'll have to look
>> at power consumption a bit more carefully.
>
> Paul,
>
> Thanks for your detailed and very helpful reply. I understand it a lot
> better now.
>
> Your last point--suggesting that something in the system is causing the
> power supply--is a concern.
>
> When the ASUS rep first told me she thought it was the PSU failing, she
> suggested that I take out some memory, which I did, disconnect the
> second CD drive, which I did, and any cards that I don't use much. I
> decided to remove the Hauppauge TV card that I hardly ever use, and when
> I removed it I noted that it was running very hot. Maybe it always
> does--I hadn't noticed that before. Obviously, if it is running hot, it
> is consuming a lot of power. Could that TV card be causing PSU failure?
> Maybe I should just get rid of it. Or is there something else, say, in
> the MB itself, that would be causing the PSU to fail?
>
> The new card has higher specs than did the old one, but the old one
> worked well for a year and a half. I had replaced the one before that
> only because the fan was too loud.
>
> Ken

I'm not suggesting it is going to happen to you, this is just a what-if
scenario.

It is OK for a card to get hot, if the function of the chip
is inherently power hungry. But if you remember the card running
cooler when you first got it, then something could be up with it.
If a chip is naturally hot, the designer will put a heatsink on it,
good for perhaps 5 watts. If 10W or 15W are being used, maybe the
designer will stick a fan on top of the heatsink. That would be evidence
that a significant power dissipation was expected.

The decoder chip on a "dumb" capture card (like a BT878 chip), should
not draw a lot of power. An MPEG compressor might draw a bit more power,
as it is doing a bit of arithmetic. And a silicon tuner (smaller than the
normal "tin can" style of TV tuner), can get quite hot. I think
they've improved since they were first introduced.

The only reason I mentioned this, is I have run into postings, where a
person replaces their power supply, only to have it fail again. If the
supply they purchased was a cheap one, the failure might be a natural
consequence of its cheapness. But if the supply is a good one, and
there is a failure after several weeks, then you can certainly whip
another supply into the computer and carry on. But I'd be curious
as to whether the power drawn is normal (150W to 200W perhaps), or
has gone quite overboard. If the supply is operating normally,
a high fan speed would suggest the thing is under stress.

Paul

Paul,

Here is the final followup.

The system was drawing about 150W.

It may well have been a MB problem to begin with, because it just died
altogether 3 nights ago and I am sending it back to ASUS for warranty repair.

Meanwhile, I decided to get that Mac with the duo-core processor, am running
Windows on it, and hope it doesn't give me any problems. Incidentally, the Mac
desktop, everything included, with a 20" screen, draws only about 90W, according
to the UPS monitor program.

Ken


"Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message news:fcfigj$neq$1@aioe.org...
> The only reason I mentioned this, is I have run into postings, where a
> person replaces their power supply, only to have it fail again. If the
> supply they purchased was a cheap one, the failure might be a natural
> consequence of its cheapness. But if the supply is a good one, and
> there is a failure after several weeks, then you can certainly whip
> another supply into the computer and carry on. But I'd be curious
> as to whether the power drawn is normal (150W to 200W perhaps), or
> has gone quite overboard. If the supply is operating normally,
> a high fan speed would suggest the thing is under stress.
>
> Paul

KenV wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Here is the final followup.
>
> The system was drawing about 150W.
>
> It may well have been a MB problem to begin with, because it just died
> altogether 3 nights ago and I am sending it back to ASUS for warranty
> repair.
>
> Meanwhile, I decided to get that Mac with the duo-core processor, am
> running Windows on it, and hope it doesn't give me any problems.
> Incidentally, the Mac desktop, everything included, with a 20" screen,
> draws only about 90W, according to the UPS monitor program.
>
> Ken
>

My old Mac draws about 70W or so by itself. But MacOSX sucks the
life out of it, which is why I don't use it very often. Web surfing
is too slow, at 1.2GHz.

Paul

>
> "Paul" <nospam@needed.com> wrote in message news:fcfigj$neq$1@aioe.org...
>> The only reason I mentioned this, is I have run into postings, where a
>> person replaces their power supply, only to have it fail again. If the
>> supply they purchased was a cheap one, the failure might be a natural
>> consequence of its cheapness. But if the supply is a good one, and
>> there is a failure after several weeks, then you can certainly whip
>> another supply into the computer and carry on. But I'd be curious
>> as to whether the power drawn is normal (150W to 200W perhaps), or
>> has gone quite overboard. If the supply is operating normally,
>> a high fan speed would suggest the thing is under stress.
>>
>> Paul
>