> >> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like to
> >> know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives? Can you
> >> recommend one brand over another?
>
> > Batteries are not cheap
> >
> > Wireless mice tend to wig out for a fraction of a second every so often .. so
> > your second click on your double click might not get through .. or your click
> > to select might not get through .. causing erroneous extra clicking sometimes
> > .. which can result in the multiple launching of the same document or
> > application ....
> >
> > how annoying is that!
> >
> > waste of money
>
> LOL! You obviously are buying really cheap crap, so there ain't much
> money wasted.
>
> I've NEVER had any kind of "wig out" on any of my wireless setups and
> I've been using them since Logitech had their first "wireless desktop".
>
> As for batteries, invest in some rechargables and you're all set.
Well, if you go for the rechargable battery then I would suggest to go for
the eneloop NiMH battery which is the current newer generation which will
hold the charge for months up to a year or more, comparing to the older
generation of NiMH won't hold the charge very long (probably around
more/less 20% per week or so)
>I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>
>If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like to
>know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives? Can you
>recommend one brand over another?
>
>Any info on this appreciated. Aaron
The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you
move the keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do
so I find that useful.
Even great wireless mice lag slightly. Some people never
notice it, the problem used to be worse than it is today so
now mostly gamers would have a reason to be particular and
yet plenty of people game ok with wireless mice.
Like with the keyboard, if your mouse stays in one spot
there's not so much need for wireless. Some people like the
asthetics of not having a cord, though the extra weight of
the battery(s) in a cordless mouse pretty much offsets the
difference in ease of use having to move a cord around with
the mouse. It certainly does look tidier to not have the
wires, I'd consider a cordless mouse more useful than a
cordless keyboard.
Negatives are bad performance with junk brands or not having
the receiver in a good spot. Even then some have a range of
6' or less. Get bluetooth type if maximum range is
important but that tends to cost significantly more.
Get some good low self discharge batteries like Sanyo
Eneloops. It's handy to have a spare pair of them charged
then whatever device you have that needs a swap - whether it
be a game controller, phone, mouse, remote control or
whatever - has a pair ready to install then you don't have
to wait on the drained set to recharge.
Generally I find Logitech sets the best, then Microsoft.
Trying to save a couple dollars by going with a lower
quality brand is usually a bad idea. A low end Logitech set
may be better than a high end generic though I would go with
a middle tiered product. Keyboard won't matter so much if
you like the key placement, style, etc. Mouse improvement
comes from spending enough to get one with a laser engine,
same as with corded mice. Some non-lasers may claim fairly
high DPI like around 1000 but they don't track as well as
their laser counterparts on many mousing surfaces.
code_wrong <tac@tac.co.uk> wrote
> <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like to know if you are happy with them. Are there
>> any negatives? Can you recommend one brand over another?
>> Any info on this appreciated. Aaron
> Batteries are not cheap
Rechargable batterys last long enough that the cost per year is peanuts.
> Wireless mice tend to wig out for a fraction of a second every so often ..
Nope, not properly designed ones.
> so your second click on your double click might not get through .. or your click to select might not get through ..
> causing erroneous extra clicking sometimes .. which can result in the multiple launching of the same document or
> application ....
> how annoying is that!
Then get a properly designed one in the first place.
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
> "aaronep@pacbell.net" <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like
>> to know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives?
>> Can you recommend one brand over another?
>> Any info on this appreciated.
> The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you move the
> keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do so I find that useful.
> Even great wireless mice lag slightly.
Nope, any mouse lags slightly.
> Some people never notice it, the problem used to be worse than
> it is today so now mostly gamers would have a reason to be
> particular and yet plenty of people game ok with wireless mice.
Because the best wireless mice dont lag any more than a wired mouse does.
> Like with the keyboard, if your mouse stays in one spot there's
> not so much need for wireless. Some people like the asthetics
> of not having a cord, though the extra weight of the battery(s)
> in a cordless mouse pretty much offsets the difference in ease
> of use having to move a cord around with the mouse.
Nope. The cord has a variable effect, the extra weight doesnt.
And the lightest mice arent as nice to use anyway.
> It certainly does look tidier to not have the wires, I'd consider
> a cordless mouse more useful than a cordless keyboard.
> Negatives are bad performance with junk brands or not having
> the receiver in a good spot. Even then some have a range of
> 6' or less. Get bluetooth type if maximum range is
> important but that tends to cost significantly more.
> Get some good low self discharge batteries like Sanyo
> Eneloops. It's handy to have a spare pair of them charged
> then whatever device you have that needs a swap - whether it
> be a game controller, phone, mouse, remote control or
> whatever - has a pair ready to install then you don't have
> to wait on the drained set to recharge.
Or get a mouse that will run all day with the low battery led flashing.
> Generally I find Logitech sets the best, then Microsoft.
> Trying to save a couple dollars by going with a lower
> quality brand is usually a bad idea. A low end Logitech set
> may be better than a high end generic though I would go with
> a middle tiered product.
I go for high end myself, because the keyboard and
mouse are more used than anything except the monitor.
> Keyboard won't matter so much if you like the key placement,
> style, etc. Mouse improvement comes from spending enough
> to get one with a laser engine, same as with corded mice. Some
> non-lasers may claim fairly high DPI like around 1000 but they
> don't track as well as their laser counterparts on many mousing surfaces.
And anyone with a clue wants more than just minimal buttons on the mouse too.
On Fri, 2 May 2008 09:43:33 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>> "aaronep@pacbell.net" <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>
>>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>
>>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like
>>> to know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives?
>>> Can you recommend one brand over another?
>
>>> Any info on this appreciated.
>
>> The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you move the
>> keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do so I find that useful.
>
>> Even great wireless mice lag slightly.
>
>Nope, any mouse lags slightly.
To be reasonable, we'd have to have some reference point
that was a mouse, since even the human "lags slightly".
Given such a reference point being a high sample rate PS2 or
USB, quality mouse, there are no wireless that don't lag
more than that reference point - so the statement is true
even if you'd like to split hairs about it.
>
>> Some people never notice it, the problem used to be worse than
>> it is today so now mostly gamers would have a reason to be
>> particular and yet plenty of people game ok with wireless mice.
>
>Because the best wireless mice dont lag any more than a wired mouse does.
False. You may not be able to perceive it yourself, but
it's there, others can. Similarly some can't perceive CRT
monitor flicker at 85Hz but others can.
>
>> Like with the keyboard, if your mouse stays in one spot there's
>> not so much need for wireless. Some people like the asthetics
>> of not having a cord, though the extra weight of the battery(s)
>> in a cordless mouse pretty much offsets the difference in ease
>> of use having to move a cord around with the mouse.
>
>Nope. The cord has a variable effect, the extra weight doesnt.
.... in your subjective use, which is fine. Everyone should
place their subjective use/needs above all other factors but
nevertheless the hypothetical ideal when the user has good
dexterity is an infinitely light mouse as it allows finer
control with the twitch muscles in the wrist which are much
faster than using more as the % of weight of mouse vs hand
grows. Certainly some mice are worse than others in this
respect, some take smaller lighter lithium cell, one or two
AAA, or one AA instead of two AA - though some that seem to
take two AA will actually run from one or a AAA if there
were an adapter shim.
>
>And the lightest mice arent as nice to use anyway.
To you. Depends why they are light to some people, if there
were no other tradeoff in shape, size, weight distribution
then there are definitely people who prefer them lighter.
Personally I find it crazy that some actually add a weight
plate. The difference is I don't need the positive feedback
of feeling pressure against my hand to know I'm moving the
mouse or how much. Perhaps when one first gets a mouse and
isn't so accustomed to it yet, a certain amount of weight
helps but otherwise it has a lot to do with the user... if
they get what they want it's win/win for everyone.
>
>> It certainly does look tidier to not have the wires, I'd consider
>> a cordless mouse more useful than a cordless keyboard.
>
>> Negatives are bad performance with junk brands or not having
>> the receiver in a good spot. Even then some have a range of
>> 6' or less. Get bluetooth type if maximum range is
>> important but that tends to cost significantly more.
>
>> Get some good low self discharge batteries like Sanyo
>> Eneloops. It's handy to have a spare pair of them charged
>> then whatever device you have that needs a swap - whether it
>> be a game controller, phone, mouse, remote control or
>> whatever - has a pair ready to install then you don't have
>> to wait on the drained set to recharge.
>
>Or get a mouse that will run all day with the low battery led flashing.
Why? So you can schedule swapping batteries at the end of
the day instead? Might matter if changing a battery took
more than a dozen seconds. Either way you still need have
the replacement pair recharged or wait on that so what I
wrote is still relevant - that it's handy to have a spare
pair of low self discharge cells already charged and waiting
to be used in whatever random device would happen to need
them.
>
>> Generally I find Logitech sets the best, then Microsoft.
>> Trying to save a couple dollars by going with a lower
>> quality brand is usually a bad idea. A low end Logitech set
>> may be better than a high end generic though I would go with
>> a middle tiered product.
>
>I go for high end myself, because the keyboard and
>mouse are more used than anything except the monitor.
Unfortunately high end in a keyboard doesn't necessarily
translate into any important parameters for general keyboard
use. Things like key travel & feedback vary per set design
decisions that are not tied to how high or low end they are,
with one possible exception that now the old mechanical
switch style used a couple decades ago has become high
enough priced to be considered high-end by some, though
AFAIK neither Logitech or MS make one.
>
>> Keyboard won't matter so much if you like the key placement,
>> style, etc. Mouse improvement comes from spending enough
>> to get one with a laser engine, same as with corded mice. Some
>> non-lasers may claim fairly high DPI like around 1000 but they
>> don't track as well as their laser counterparts on many mousing surfaces.
>
>And anyone with a clue wants more than just minimal buttons on the mouse too.
>
Depends on their use. Games or HTPC users who want to
control their HTPC with only a mouse may benefit from addt'l
buttons the most, and as for the keyboard there are plenty
of keyboard shortcuts and on most modern keyboards - even
the cheap low end ones, there are several hotkeys that can
be programmed. A low end cordless Logitech for example may
have about a dozen such addt'l keys, in addition to
secondary functions on all the <Fn> keys.
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>>> "aaronep@pacbell.net" <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>>>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>>>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like
>>>> to know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives?
>>>> Can you recommend one brand over another?
>>>> Any info on this appreciated.
>>> The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you move the
>>> keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do so I find that useful.
>>> Even great wireless mice lag slightly.
>> Nope, any mouse lags slightly.
> To be reasonable, we'd have to have some reference point that was a mouse,
Nope. We know that any mouse thats serially connected to the PC, and all of the
current mice are, have to lag slightly due to the speed of the serial connection.
> since even the human "lags slightly".
Nope, what we are talking about is the time between
when say the button is pressed and the PC registers
that press. Same with a movement of the mouse.
> Given such a reference point being a high sample rate
> PS2 or USB, quality mouse, there are no wireless that
> don't lag more than that reference point
What matters is whether the wireless link adds any lag. It doesnt with the best wireless mice.
> - so the statement is true
Nope.
> even if you'd like to split hairs about it.
It aint hair splitting, its fact, ALL modern mice lag.
>>> Some people never notice it, the problem used to be worse than
>>> it is today so now mostly gamers would have a reason to be
>>> particular and yet plenty of people game ok with wireless mice.
>> Because the best wireless mice dont lag any more than a wired mouse does.
> False.
Fact.
> You may not be able to perceive it yourself, but it's there, others can.
Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
> Similarly some can't perceive CRT monitor flicker at 85Hz but others can.
Irrelevant to what is being discussed.
And human perception can be completely eliminated from
a rigorous scientific measurement of mouse lag anyway.
And its completely trivial to calculate the lag involved in any serial communication anyway.
>>> Like with the keyboard, if your mouse stays in one spot there's
>>> not so much need for wireless. Some people like the asthetics
>>> of not having a cord, though the extra weight of the battery(s)
>>> in a cordless mouse pretty much offsets the difference in ease
>>> of use having to move a cord around with the mouse.
>> Nope. The cord has a variable effect, the extra weight doesnt.
> ... in your subjective use,
Nope, nothing subjective about whether the cord sometimes
affects the movement of the mouse and sometimes doesnt.
> which is fine. Everyone should place their subjective use/needs
> above all other factors but nevertheless the hypothetical ideal
> when the user has good dexterity is an infinitely light mouse
> as it allows finer control with the twitch muscles in the wrist
> which are much faster than using more as the % of weight
> of mouse vs hand grows.
Meaningless waffle with what is being discussed there.
> Certainly some mice are worse than others in this respect,
> some take smaller lighter lithium cell, one or two AAA, or one
> AA instead of two AA - though some that seem to take two AA
> will actually run from one or a AAA if there were an adapter shim.
Irrelevant to whether the cord on a corded mouse will sometime
constrain the mouse movement when it gets snagged.
>> And the lightest mice arent as nice to use anyway.
> To you.
To everyone.
> Depends why they are light to some people, if there
> were no other tradeoff in shape, size, weight distribution
> then there are definitely people who prefer them lighter.
More meaningless waffle.
> Personally I find it crazy that some actually add a weight plate.
Your problem.
> The difference is I don't need the positive feedback of feeling pressure
> against my hand to know I'm moving the mouse or how much.
That isnt the reason for adding weight deliberately.
> Perhaps when one first gets a mouse and isn't so accustomed to it yet,
> a certain amount of weight helps but otherwise it has a lot to do with
> the user... if they get what they want it's win/win for everyone.
More irrelevant waffle.
>>> It certainly does look tidier to not have the wires, I'd consider
>>> a cordless mouse more useful than a cordless keyboard.
>>> Negatives are bad performance with junk brands or not having
>>> the receiver in a good spot. Even then some have a range of
>>> 6' or less. Get bluetooth type if maximum range is
>>> important but that tends to cost significantly more.
>>> Get some good low self discharge batteries like Sanyo
>>> Eneloops. It's handy to have a spare pair of them charged
>>> then whatever device you have that needs a swap - whether it
>>> be a game controller, phone, mouse, remote control or
>>> whatever - has a pair ready to install then you don't have
>>> to wait on the drained set to recharge.
>> Or get a mouse that will run all day with the low battery led flashing.
> Why?
So you dont have to do anything about the battery being low till its convenient to do that.
> So you can schedule swapping batteries at the end of the day instead?
Not schedule, just do something about the low battery when the mouse isnt being used.
And anyone with a clue uses a mouse that doesnt need
to have the rechargeable batterys physically removed too.
> Might matter if changing a battery took more than a dozen seconds.
Anyone with a clue uses a mouse that doesnt need
to have the rechargeable batterys physically removed.
> Either way you still need have the replacement pair recharged
Not if you recharge what stays in the mouse.
> or wait on that
Not if the batterys that stay in the mouse are
recharged overnight while you arent using the mouse.
> so what I wrote is still relevant
Nope, as always.
> - that it's handy to have a spare pair of low self discharge
> cells already charged and waiting to be used in whatever
> random device would happen to need them.
Anyone with a clue uses a mouse that allows the batterys to be
recharged without removing them from the mouse, and which runs fine
with the low battery indication flashing for the whole day so you can
just recharge it when you arent going to use the mouse overnight etc.
>>> Generally I find Logitech sets the best, then Microsoft.
>>> Trying to save a couple dollars by going with a lower
>>> quality brand is usually a bad idea. A low end Logitech
>>> set may be better than a high end generic though I
>>> would go with a middle tiered product.
>> I go for high end myself, because the keyboard and
>> mouse are more used than anything except the monitor.
> Unfortunately high end in a keyboard doesn't necessarily translate
> into any important parameters for general keyboard use.
Wrong, as always.
> Things like key travel & feedback vary per set design
> decisions that are not tied to how high or low end they are,
I didnt even mention low end.
> with one possible exception that now the old mechanical
> switch style used a couple decades ago has become high
> enough priced to be considered high-end by some, though
> AFAIK neither Logitech or MS make one.
That bit wasnt even discussing keyboards. The next bit clearly was about keyboards.
>>> Keyboard won't matter so much if you like the key placement, style,
>>> etc. Mouse improvement comes from spending enough to get one
>>> with a laser engine, same as with corded mice. Some non-lasers
>>> may claim fairly high DPI like around 1000 but they don't track as
>>> well as their laser counterparts on many mousing surfaces.
>> And anyone with a clue wants more than just minimal buttons on the mouse too.
> Depends on their use.
Nope.
> Games or HTPC users who want to control their HTPC
> with only a mouse may benefit from addt'l buttons the most,
Irrelevant to the other situations that benefit from more than just minimal mouse buttons.
> and as for the keyboard there are plenty of keyboard shortcuts and
> on most modern keyboards - even the cheap low end ones, there
> are several hotkeys that can be programmed. A low end cordless
> Logitech for example may have about a dozen such addt'l keys, in
> addition to secondary functions on all the <Fn> keys.
Irrelevant to my comment about mouse buttons. And those dont
replace well designed extra functions on the mouse anyway.
On Sat, 3 May 2008 06:47:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>>>> "aaronep@pacbell.net" <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>
>>>>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>
>>>>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like
>>>>> to know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives?
>>>>> Can you recommend one brand over another?
>
>>>>> Any info on this appreciated.
>
>>>> The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you move the
>>>> keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do so I find that useful.
>
>>>> Even great wireless mice lag slightly.
>
>>> Nope, any mouse lags slightly.
>
>> To be reasonable, we'd have to have some reference point that was a mouse,
>
>Nope. We know that any mouse thats serially connected to the PC, and all of the
>current mice are, have to lag slightly due to the speed of the serial connection.
.... and yet, the wireless connection from a cordless to the
receiver is multiple times longer lag - making it by far the
most significant thing to mention since we can't get rid of
the former lag, but can the larger latter lag.
>
>> since even the human "lags slightly".
>
>Nope, what we are talking about is the time between
>when say the button is pressed and the PC registers
>that press. Same with a movement of the mouse.
Which is also what I'm talking about. Wireless is always
significantly worse lag. Always. Take the cheapest junk
old generic 400DPI corded mouse and it easily beats best
modern laser 2.4GHz linked cordless.
>> You may not be able to perceive it yourself, but it's there, others can.
>
>Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
No it's not, anybody that knows beans about wireless knows
it's a slower transmission than 0 latency, and the wired
aspect of the serial connection still exists because the
receiver is still plugged into the (usually) PS2 or USB
port.
>
>> Similarly some can't perceive CRT monitor flicker at 85Hz but others can.
>
>Irrelevant to what is being discussed.
Only because you refuse to accept you can't perceive
something that others can. That means for you, wireless has
no penalty and you don't have to consider the difference.
It doesn't necessarily mean that for others who apparently
have more accute senses.
Since you're stuck in argument mode I'll just let you talk
amongst yourself and your mice, it doesn't bother me at all
if you disagree so long as we both have the info needed to
make the choice of the right peripherals for our own
subjective needs.
kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> kony <spam@spam.com> wrote
>>>>> "aaronep@pacbell.net" <aaronep@pacbell.net> wrote
>>>>>> I am interested in converting from wired to wireless keyboard & mouse.
>>>>>> If anyone reading this has experience with wireless, I would like
>>>>>> to know if you are happy with them. Are there any negatives?
>>>>>> Can you recommend one brand over another?
>>>>>> Any info on this appreciated.
>>>>> The need for wireless keyboard depends most on whether you move
>>>>> the keyboard off the desk in front of a monitor. I do so I find that useful.
>>>>> Even great wireless mice lag slightly.
>>>> Nope, any mouse lags slightly.
>>> To be reasonable, we'd have to have some reference point that was a mouse,
>> Nope. We know that any mouse thats serially connected
>> to the PC, and all of the current mice are, have to lag
>> slightly due to the speed of the serial connection.
> ... and yet, the wireless connection from a cordless
> to the receiver is multiple times longer lag
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim with all wireless mice.
> - making it by far the most significant thing to mention since
> we can't get rid of the former lag, but can the larger latter lag.
Pity about when the lag with the wireless part is much smaller than the other lag.
>>> since even the human "lags slightly".
>> Nope, what we are talking about is the time between
>> when say the button is pressed and the PC registers
>> that press. Same with a movement of the mouse.
> Which is also what I'm talking about.
Nope, no human is involved at all with what we are talking about.
> Wireless is always significantly worse lag. Always.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim with all wireless mice.
> Take the cheapest junk old generic 400DPI corded mouse and
> it easily beats best modern laser 2.4GHz linked cordless.
Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.
>>> You may not be able to perceive it yourself, but it's there, others can.
>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
> No it's not,
Then you will have no trouble doing so. Bet you cant.
> anybody that knows beans about wireless knows
> it's a slower transmission than 0 latency, and the wired
> aspect of the serial connection still exists because the
> receiver is still plugged into the (usually) PS2 or USB port.
Irrelevant to your stupid SIGNIFICANTLY and EASILY BEATS claim.
>>> Similarly some can't perceive CRT monitor flicker at 85Hz but others can.
>> Irrelevant to what is being discussed.
> Only because you refuse to accept you can't perceive something that others can.
Its completely trivial to eliminate all perception and MEASURE the lag.
> That means for you, wireless has no penalty and you don't
> have to consider the difference. It doesn't necessarily mean
> that for others who apparently have more accute senses.
That mindless wanking is why anyone with a clue uses randomised double blind trials.
> Since you're stuck in argument mode
Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?
> I'll just let you talk amongst yourself and your mice, it doesn't bother
> me at all if you disagree so long as we both have the info needed to
> make the choice of the right peripherals for our own subjective needs.
Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.
Re: cordless keyboards & Mice? 
Linear Mode
