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| Author |
Message |
Chris
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:11 pm Post subject: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
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|
Hi all,
It's been a while since I built my current system (400MHz Celeron,
upgraded to 1GHz Celeron) but now it looks like the mobo and CPU are
really at the end of their life cycle (slow!). I'm trying to get
familiar with the current standard of hardware and find out some
issues. In the old days, when I was looking for information to get my
system together, I'd check Tom's hardware site, but well, let's put it
nicely, I don't think this site is what it used to be (when did Tom
get an Intel fetish?). So I'd like to ask this group instead for some
opinions. I'm considering to keep some components to save some money.
IMHO they suit me fine for my use, but if someone disagrees, just say
so.
What I want to get rid of:
Celeron 1GHz @ 1.2GHz
Asus P2B-F
512MB PC133 SDRAM
What I want to re-use (wise? please comment):
2x 40GB Maxtor 7200 rpm UDMA 133
Promise UDMA133 controller
Asus GeForce2 Ti 32 MB
LiteOn CD burner
Aopen 12x DVD player
Noname 10/100 ethernet card
I'm running Mandrake Linux 9.1 and use it for some photo editing and
printing, word processing, spreadsheeting, CD burning, and now and
then I rip a DVD and encode a DivX movie, which I want to be able to
watch at my PC. I do very minor gaming.
- As I see it, the price / performance ratio favours for an Athlon
system instead of a P4. Right?
- I'm not sure about the differences between the various Athlon
chipsets like Nforce, SIS and VIA in all their kinds. Which one would
suit me good enough?
- I must say my previous Asus mobo never disappointed me, so why
change brand?
- As it concerns the CPU, I'm seeing Athlons with different amounts of
L2 cache. Is more always better? What's Opteron (except expensive)?
- Remember I'm a home user. I don't do heavy mathematical calcs at
home, nor am I a fanatic gamer, Tux games are fun and very peaceful as
long as you're not a haring :-)
Thanks in advance for all reactions.
Cheers!
Chris |
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Ken Kauffman
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
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|
<snip>
| What I want to get rid of:
| Celeron 1GHz @ 1.2GHz
| Asus P2B-F
| 512MB PC133 SDRAM
|
| What I want to re-use (wise? please comment):
| 2x 40GB Maxtor 7200 rpm UDMA 133
Good drives. You might consider putting them in a RAID-0 so that you get
better throughput while maintaining the amount of space (for the most part).
| Promise UDMA133 controller
Fine.
| Asus GeForce2 Ti 32 MB
Fine for now. Consider bumping it up to maybe a FX5200 Nvidia based card
with more ram. You can get a decent one for $70
(http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=323226)
I saw a significant difference when I moved from my GeForce 2 card to this
one.
| LiteOn CD burner
Fine
| Aopen 12x DVD player
Fine.
| Noname 10/100 ethernet card
Fine.
|
| I'm running Mandrake Linux 9.1 and use it for some photo editing and
| printing, word processing, spreadsheeting, CD burning, and now and
| then I rip a DVD and encode a DivX movie, which I want to be able to
| watch at my PC. I do very minor gaming.
|
| - As I see it, the price / performance ratio favours for an Athlon
| system instead of a P4. Right?
I would do that. The 2800 Barton is a good balance of price and
performance.
|
| - I'm not sure about the differences between the various Athlon
| chipsets like Nforce, SIS and VIA in all their kinds. Which one would
| suit me good enough?
I've just recently built a few systems that use both VIA and NForce. I
hated the Abit NF7-S board, had many bios related problems and see alot of
issues in the Abit newsgroup. I LOVE the Asus Nvidia board ( A7N8X
Deluxe ). Alienware uses this board for a lot of their systems too. Don't
forget to get decent RAM (recommended for your usage:
http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80060-1) 2
sticks... hmmm.. price went up $10 stick since I bought it. I also got a
VIA based Giga-byte board. The board is really reliable, I like the dual
bios for recoverability, but it is not as quick/snappy as the Asus board. I
still like the board overall. The Asus is so far very reliable. It also
has RAID built in for the hard drive config I recommended.
|
| - I must say my previous Asus mobo never disappointed me, so why
| change brand?
Don't.
|
| - As it concerns the CPU, I'm seeing Athlons with different amounts of
| L2 cache. Is more always better? What's Opteron (except expensive)?
You wont' see a substantive difference most likely between Intel and AMD for
the work you are doing. Opteron is 64 bit and you have to spend more on a
motherboard too. Keeping costs low, forget that board.
|
| - Remember I'm a home user. I don't do heavy mathematical calcs at
| home, nor am I a fanatic gamer, Tux games are fun and very peaceful as
| long as you're not a haring :-)
Ok.
|
| Thanks in advance for all reactions.
| Cheers!
| Chris
Don't forget that you may most likely need to get a new power supply for
this setup. Might as well buy an Antec (or similar case) since you get the
appropriate power supplies in most. Look at a 350w+ case.
I just put this system together for a friend doing the same thing and it is
my favorite configuration so far. He also had to "keep the cost low":
Asus A7N8X Deluxe nforce2
AMD Athlon XP 2800+ 2.08GHz
Chaintech A-FX20 GeForce FX 5200
Corsair CMX512-2700C2PT 512MB (1 stick)
Antec case (forgot model, roughly $65 free shipping)
I ordered all parts (except case) on googlegear - lowest prices (except for
case).
I would put a little extra money into the CPU now and go with a single 512
stick of RAM. You can always add RAM later, but upgrading the CPU costs
alot more. The price on this was right around $500. ( i gave him the vid
card as gift though, so add $70ish).
my $.02
ken k |
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chris
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:02 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:38:55 -0400, "Ken Kauffman"
<kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: | | Asus GeForce2 Ti 32 MB
Fine for now. Consider bumping it up to maybe a FX5200 Nvidia based card
with more ram. You can get a decent one for $70
(http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=323226)
I saw a significant difference when I moved from my GeForce 2 card to this
one.
|
Sorry to ask, but what kind of diffrence did you notice exactly between the
two video cards? 2D quality? Or significant faster 3D (games)? Because that
last argument is less important to me.
<snip>
| Quote: | Don't forget that you may most likely need to get a new power supply for
this setup. Might as well buy an Antec (or similar case) since you get the
appropriate power supplies in most. Look at a 350w+ case.
|
Right! My current PSU is a 230W model, which may be quite poor to satisfy the
Athlon.
Thanks for the feedback.
Cheers,
Chris |
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Scott Alfter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:13 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
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|
Ken Kauffman <kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote:
| Quote: | | What I want to re-use (wise? please comment):
| 2x 40GB Maxtor 7200 rpm UDMA 133
Good drives. You might consider putting them in a RAID-0 so that you get
better throughput while maintaining the amount of space (for the most part).
|
Keep in mind that RAID-0 isn't really redundant. I especially don't know if
I'd trust Maxtors (=POS) in a stripe set, but stripe sets aren't recommended
for anything you can't afford to lose...if one drive in the set fails, you
lose everything.
(I got away with striping a pair of old 4.3GB Seagate Barracudas for about a
year and a half with no trouble, but that's a better drive than most. I
just replaced the set with a single 36GB IBM Ultrastar (one of the 10krpm
models...a 73LZX, IIRC). One drive instead of two is one less point of
failure.)
_/_ Scott Alfter
/ v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
(IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
\_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on Usenet? |
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Ken Kauffman
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:33 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
"Scott Alfter" <salfter@salfter.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:c1gTa.13830$Bp2.11432@fed1read07...
| Ken Kauffman <kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote:
| > | What I want to re-use (wise? please comment):
| > | 2x 40GB Maxtor 7200 rpm UDMA 133
| >
| > Good drives. You might consider putting them in a RAID-0 so that you get
| > better throughput while maintaining the amount of space (for the most
part).
|
| Keep in mind that RAID-0 isn't really redundant. I especially don't know
if
| I'd trust Maxtors (=POS) in a stripe set, but stripe sets aren't
recommended
| for anything you can't afford to lose...if one drive in the set fails, you
| lose everything.
|
| (I got away with striping a pair of old 4.3GB Seagate Barracudas for about
a
| year and a half with no trouble, but that's a better drive than most. I
| just replaced the set with a single 36GB IBM Ultrastar (one of the 10krpm
| models...a 73LZX, IIRC). One drive instead of two is one less point of
| failure.)
|
| _/_ Scott Alfter
| / v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
| (IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
| \_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on
Usenet?
|
It's a calculated risk. I am currently using those exact 40Gb Maxtor drives
now in a Raid0 for over a year now. I had some growing pains when Highpoint
drivers had to match the chipset or I got regular corruption, but now all is
good.
ken k |
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CLF
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:51 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
"Ken Kauffman" <kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote in message
news:15iTa.17312$zd4.1135@lakeread02...
| Quote: |
"Scott Alfter" <salfter@salfter.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:c1gTa.13830$Bp2.11432@fed1read07...
| Ken Kauffman <kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote:
| > | What I want to re-use (wise? please comment):
| > | 2x 40GB Maxtor 7200 rpm UDMA 133
|
| > Good drives. You might consider putting them in a RAID-0 so that you
get
| > better throughput while maintaining the amount of space (for the most
part).
|
| Keep in mind that RAID-0 isn't really redundant. I especially don't
know
if
| I'd trust Maxtors (=POS) in a stripe set, but stripe sets aren't
recommended
| for anything you can't afford to lose...if one drive in the set fails,
you
| lose everything.
|
| (I got away with striping a pair of old 4.3GB Seagate Barracudas for
about
a
| year and a half with no trouble, but that's a better drive than most. I
| just replaced the set with a single 36GB IBM Ultrastar (one of the
10krpm
| models...a 73LZX, IIRC). One drive instead of two is one less point of
| failure.)
|
| _/_ Scott Alfter
| / v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
| (IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
| \_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on
Usenet?
|
It's a calculated risk. I am currently using those exact 40Gb Maxtor
drives
now in a Raid0 for over a year now. I had some growing pains when
Highpoint
drivers had to match the chipset or I got regular corruption, but now all
is
good.
ken k
|
Personally, I would trust the Maxtors more than the IBMs. First, the Maxtor
spins at 7200RPM, so it is harder to fail than a 10,000RPM drive. Then
again, they are called Maxtor for a reason ;)
But, IME, with Maxtors, I've had only 1 fail, but it was buggy from the
beginning, and they did replace it for free, so I didn't loose anything
except some of my files (which I was smart enough to backup  . However,
I've had IBMs in a RAID array (two 45s) and they have failed. Actually,
I've had 4 of them, as 2 of them have failed. So, 1 failed Maxtor and 2
failed IBMs. But, I have 4 more Maxtors that haven't failed, and I don't
have ANY other IBMs. So, you're looking at 16% fail vs 50% fail (Max v
IBM), from my experience.
Actually, the repacement was better. My old Maxtor had 3 platters, the new
one has 1 (2?) platter(s), 60GB. Both are 7200RPM, the new is ATA/133, the
dead was ATA/100. I believe the cache was/is equal at 2MB...
Either way, RAID-0 is fun while it works....RAID-1 is just a waste of
money...unless you have highly important files, but those would have been
backed up on some sort of really reliable media, twice. |
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Scott Alfter
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:15 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
In article <rliTa.119365$N7.16668@sccrnsc03>, CLF <nospam@yahooo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Personally, I would trust the Maxtors more than the IBMs. First, the Maxtor
spins at 7200RPM, so it is harder to fail than a 10,000RPM drive. Then
again, they are called Maxtor for a reason
|
I've had too many Maxtor drives fail in too short a time (three in a row in
three months or less each) to put any faith in one of them holding together.
I won't say the IBM drives I've had have all been trouble-free, but the
problems there seem to have been limited to the Deskstar 75GXP and 60GXP
series. The striped 120GXPs I use for temporary storage (mainly video
editing) at home haven't given me any problems, and the really ancient SCSI
drives I bought used for my Apple IIs have been trouble-free.
(It's worth noting that the Ultrastar I mentioned previously is an Ultra160
SCSI hard drive, not an IDE drive. SCSI drives are usually built a bit
better than IDE drives.)
| Quote: | Either way, RAID-0 is fun while it works
|
It's good for getting insane speed out of your drives, if that's a more
important concern than long-term reliability. There's a SCSI minitower case
here with six 4.3GB Barracudas in it. When striped, it's nearly as fast as
current-production 7200rpm IDE hard drives...considering that the drives in
it are 5-6 years old, that's not bad at all.
_/_ Scott Alfter
/ v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
(IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
\_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iD8DBQE/Hbd2VgTKos01OwkRAho7AJ9PGBvmi0EA2ou801iSXGXZwIfYgwCgyMxX
mfmd9xot2tw6n9jlXL5k+o8=
=5HKg
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Ken Kauffman
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:32 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
"Scott Alfter" <salfter@salfter.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:WHiTa.13849$Bp2.9295@fed1read07...
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| In article <rliTa.119365$N7.16668@sccrnsc03>, CLF <nospam@yahooo.com>
wrote:
| >Personally, I would trust the Maxtors more than the IBMs. First, the
Maxtor
| >spins at 7200RPM, so it is harder to fail than a 10,000RPM drive. Then
| >again, they are called Maxtor for a reason
|
| I've had too many Maxtor drives fail in too short a time (three in a row
in
| three months or less each) to put any faith in one of them holding
together.
| I won't say the IBM drives I've had have all been trouble-free, but the
| problems there seem to have been limited to the Deskstar 75GXP and 60GXP
| series. The striped 120GXPs I use for temporary storage (mainly video
| editing) at home haven't given me any problems, and the really ancient
SCSI
| drives I bought used for my Apple IIs have been trouble-free.
|
| (It's worth noting that the Ultrastar I mentioned previously is an
Ultra160
| SCSI hard drive, not an IDE drive. SCSI drives are usually built a bit
| better than IDE drives.)
|
| >Either way, RAID-0 is fun while it works
|
| It's good for getting insane speed out of your drives, if that's a more
| important concern than long-term reliability. There's a SCSI minitower
case
| here with six 4.3GB Barracudas in it. When striped, it's nearly as fast
as
| current-production 7200rpm IDE hard drives...considering that the drives
in
| it are 5-6 years old, that's not bad at all.
|
| _/_ Scott Alfter
| / v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
| (IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
| \_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on
Usenet?
|
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
| Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
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| iD8DBQE/Hbd2VgTKos01OwkRAho7AJ9PGBvmi0EA2ou801iSXGXZwIfYgwCgyMxX
| mfmd9xot2tw6n9jlXL5k+o8=
| =5HKg
| -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
People tend to complain about what does not work vs what does work.
Statistically, you are fine with a Raid 0 and any drives. Odds favor SCSI
drives because of their construction.
ken k |
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Tony Hill
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:26 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:51:19 GMT, "CLF" <nospam@yahooo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Personally, I would trust the Maxtors more than the IBMs. First, the Maxtor
spins at 7200RPM, so it is harder to fail than a 10,000RPM drive. Then
again, they are called Maxtor for a reason ;)
But, IME, with Maxtors, I've had only 1 fail, but it was buggy from the
beginning, and they did replace it for free, so I didn't loose anything
except some of my files (which I was smart enough to backup . However,
I've had IBMs in a RAID array (two 45s) and they have failed. Actually,
I've had 4 of them, as 2 of them have failed. So, 1 failed Maxtor and 2
failed IBMs. But, I have 4 more Maxtors that haven't failed, and I don't
have ANY other IBMs. So, you're looking at 16% fail vs 50% fail (Max v
IBM), from my experience.
|
If you use enough of any drives, you'll have a lot of them fail. Hard
drives are, in my experience, the second least reliable part of any
modern computer (the least reliable being fans for heatsinks). My
most recent failure was an IBM drive, but I've had Maxtor, Quantum, WD
and Seagate drives fail on me over the years. I haven't seen any one
company do better or worse than any other one. What I have seen is
particular models that seem pretty bad. The IBM drive that recently
failed on me was a Deskstar 75GXP, which had a VERY bad reputation
(probably the worst of any drive in recent memory). However the IBM
60GXP and 120GXP drives seem just fine.
| Quote: | Actually, the repacement was better. My old Maxtor had 3 platters, the new
one has 1 (2?) platter(s), 60GB. Both are 7200RPM, the new is ATA/133, the
dead was ATA/100. I believe the cache was/is equal at 2MB...
Either way, RAID-0 is fun while it works....RAID-1 is just a waste of
money...unless you have highly important files, but those would have been
backed up on some sort of really reliable media, twice.
|
A good RAID-1 controller will actually give you quite a significant
boost in read performance, since it will treat the two drives like a
RAID-0 array when reading. When it comes to writing though it will
perform just like a single drive (or worse if you have a crappy
controller). The only problem here is that most IDE RAID controllers
are very crappy controllers, so what "should" happen and what does
happen with many setups are often very different things. |
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|
Stacey
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:20 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
Chris wrote:
| Quote: | Hi all,
In the old days, when I was looking for information to get my
system together, I'd check Tom's hardware site, but well, let's put it
nicely, I don't think this site is what it used to be (when did Tom
get an Intel fetish?).
|
Anandtech and several other sites that "appeared" to be pro AMD are now pro
intel. The 800FSB chips are fast.. Where have you been looking that said
they aren't? ;-)
| Quote: | So I'd like to ask this group instead for some
opinions.
I'm running Mandrake Linux 9.1 and use it for some photo editing and
printing, word processing, spreadsheeting, CD burning, and now and
then I rip a DVD and encode a DivX movie, which I want to be able to
watch at my PC. I do very minor gaming.
- As I see it, the price / performance ratio favours for an Athlon
system instead of a P4. Right?
|
Yep and for what you're doing an nforce/AMD will be plenty.. Just don't
confuse -price/performance- with -performance-.
--
Stacey |
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|
|
CLF
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:36 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
"Ken Kauffman" <kkauffman@nospam.headfog.com> wrote in message
news:HXiTa.17442$zd4.7762@lakeread02...
| Quote: |
"Scott Alfter" <salfter@salfter.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:WHiTa.13849$Bp2.9295@fed1read07...
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| In article <rliTa.119365$N7.16668@sccrnsc03>, CLF <nospam@yahooo.com
wrote:
| >Personally, I would trust the Maxtors more than the IBMs. First, the
Maxtor
| >spins at 7200RPM, so it is harder to fail than a 10,000RPM drive. Then
| >again, they are called Maxtor for a reason
|
| I've had too many Maxtor drives fail in too short a time (three in a row
in
| three months or less each) to put any faith in one of them holding
together.
| I won't say the IBM drives I've had have all been trouble-free, but the
| problems there seem to have been limited to the Deskstar 75GXP and 60GXP
| series. The striped 120GXPs I use for temporary storage (mainly video
| editing) at home haven't given me any problems, and the really ancient
SCSI
| drives I bought used for my Apple IIs have been trouble-free.
|
| (It's worth noting that the Ultrastar I mentioned previously is an
Ultra160
| SCSI hard drive, not an IDE drive. SCSI drives are usually built a bit
| better than IDE drives.)
|
| >Either way, RAID-0 is fun while it works
|
| It's good for getting insane speed out of your drives, if that's a more
| important concern than long-term reliability. There's a SCSI minitower
case
| here with six 4.3GB Barracudas in it. When striped, it's nearly as fast
as
| current-production 7200rpm IDE hard drives...considering that the drives
in
| it are 5-6 years old, that's not bad at all.
|
| _/_ Scott Alfter
| / v \ salfter@salfter.dyndns.org
| (IIGS( http://alfter.us Top-posting!
| \_^_/ pkill -9 /bin/laden >What is the most annoying thing on
Usenet?
|
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
| Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux)
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| iD8DBQE/Hbd2VgTKos01OwkRAho7AJ9PGBvmi0EA2ou801iSXGXZwIfYgwCgyMxX
| mfmd9xot2tw6n9jlXL5k+o8=
| =5HKg
| -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
People tend to complain about what does not work vs what does work.
Statistically, you are fine with a Raid 0 and any drives. Odds favor SCSI
drives because of their construction.
ken k
|
People tend to complain about what doesn't work that should work....
I'm not complaining because I am able to use my hard drive as I should |
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Tony Hill
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:28 am Post subject: Re: I'm considering an Athlon system... |
|
|
On 23 Jul 2003 02:53:42 -0700, cleurs@wish.net (Chris) wrote:
| Quote: | Anyway, in the time I built my system, I also checked various hardware
sites and didn't get the impression about a specific AMD or Intel bias
at Tom's. Is he at Intel's payrole nowadays? ;-)
|
Tom is biased in favor of whatever company happens to be pampering his
(enormous) ego that week. He's biased against any company that isn't
treating him like a king, taking him out to dinner and giving him the
full red-carpet treatment. Fortunately he no longer seems to be
involved on his own website, so the quality has gone up marginally in
the past year or two. It still tends to be a VERY superficial site
that jumps to ridiculous conclusions based on very little evidence,
but then again, the same could be said about just about every other
hardware review website (and print magazine for that matter) out there
today.
It's important to remember that most of these websites are primarily
designed to get page hits in order to get advertising money. Tom has
made a hell of a lot of money off his website over the years, as have
a few of the other big-name hardware sites (Anand was able to buy
himself a brand-spanking new BMW for his own 16th birthday when his
website was still relatively young). As such, they will often post
rather sensationalist articles in order to attract viewers, even if
such articles are not 100% factually accurate. A perfect example of
this is the much hyped video on Tom's site showing an AMD Athlon
burning up when the heatsink is removed. This video (and the
accompanies text) had some VERY obvious technical flaws to it, some of
which lead me to believe that a lot of it was faked, but it must have
got Tom's millions, perhaps even billions of page hits. |
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