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Arthur Entlich
Guest
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 Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Hi Steve,
I was wondering if you might know... I have never seen this offered in
Canada, where you could buy the printer with or without the ink
cartridges from a factory sealed box, do you know if this might be the
result of EU legislation regarding consumables?
I'm quite surprised by it, actually.
Art
SteveG wrote:
| Quote: | measekite wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Arthur Entlich wrote:
Just wondering why the printer didn't come with OEM cartridges. Was
it bought used or as a demo?
SG: It was purchased new via the Internet. Epson sell it either with
or without cartridges. The company I purchased it from included a set
of compatibles free of charge (?) which enabled me to make quite a
saving over the high street price of printer with carts.
Sounds like a sleezy vender who took out the good Epsons carts to
resell separately and put in crap and give you a little discount but
since the carts cost half or more of the printer I guess you got a bad
deal.
SG: Not at all. It was obvious that the box had not been opened and
resealed - you can't do that without tearing the waxed coating. Epson
(in the UK) have two different retail packages; one with carts and one
without. As you have no idea how much discount I got by purchasing the
"without" package you have no basis on which to determine if I got a
good deal or not. Trust me ... I did.
I would expect if the first set worked and the replacement was the
same type of cartridge and such, that it should be responded to
similarly. Are you sure you put the correct color in the correct
location, and that the correct model number cartridge was purchased?
Were the replacements ones new or refilled?
SG: I'm still a bit confused as to why one set of compatibles would
work and another not - see my other post. I was only replacing the
black so didn't have a chance to mix them up and put them in the
wrong slots. Of course, the replacement cartridge may not be a black
or may have the wrong chip fitted to it. That might explain why it
didn't work but not why the original (as in first one) worked before
but not now.
Confusing, innit?
Art
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Arthur Entlich
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Thanks for the additional info. I have not seen this offered in North
America, and it still surprises me that Epson would allow this unless
legislated, since they would want you to use their ink, and make a point
of "suggesting" using other brands "might" void the warranty.
Interesting...
Art
SteveG wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Entlich wrote:
Is this something new, or is this retailer "unbundling" factory
products and selling parts separately. This was a common practice in
New York City among camera retailers but was stopped by some legislation.
Art
SG: Epson have been selling printers (at least in the UK) for some while
without cartridges (or USB leads). They usually offer retailers the
option of packages with or without the cartridges. The one I purchased
was "without" but the retailer, who has a good reputation, included the
compatibles free of charge. Okay, I know nothing is really for free :-)
I could tell that the printer box hadn't been opened as it's almost
impossible to remove the sealing tape without tearing the waxed outer
layer of the box.
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Arthur Entlich
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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I don't want to come off sounding like I am opposed to 3rd party
consumables, because I am not, and use them myself, with little or no
problems (at least nothing worse than when I use OEM), however, I would
like to add to some of this discussion. Epson, Lexmark and HP have all
successfully sued 3rd party cartridge manufacturers for producing new
cartridges, which often did, by necessity violate patents (they wouldn't
work otherwise.
Refilling is another matter, because you are reusing the manufacturers
own product. That's a bit stickier a deal, and is why the manufacturers
have attempted to make their cartridges are difficult to refill as
possible. In the case of toner cartridges, some literally burn out some
of the circuitry when they become empty to make it more costly to repair
and refill them.
SteveG wrote:
| Quote: | measekite wrote:
SteveG wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Hi all, I'm new to this group but have been using Epson printers for
several years. Just recently I purchased an R265 and so far have
been very pleased with it but tonight I have a problem.
The printer came with a set of S-Vision compatible cartridges.
Tonight the printer reported that the Black one needed replacing so
I got out an identical replacement (same manufacturer) and went
through the process of replacement.
When I got to the ink charging part of the replacement cycle the
printer reported that the new cartridge is incompatible and refused
to complete the cycle. Putting the original cartridge back in
results in the same thing happening - odd, as it's been in the
printer for about 6 weeks now.
Oh, and before Measekite goes on about ruining the printer by using
non-original inks - don't bother wearing out your fingers on the
keyboard, It's my printer and I'll do what I want with it. Neither
you, nor Epson, have a right to tell me what consumables to use in
it. There, rant over :-)
Am I missing a trick here? Is there something I need to do to make
the printer think the cartridge is a good one? Have I bought a duff
cartridge?
Firstly, many thanks for everyone that responded to my post - even
Measekite. I did some additional digging today by talking to an IT
acquaintance of mine and it appears that Epson have been a bit sneaky
- as is their want.
If the printer was manufactured before 1st March 2007 then it should
work fine with compatible cartridges. If it was manufactured during
March then it may work/may not but if it was manufactured after 1st
April 2007 (naughty date that) it has firmware embedded that will
only recognise Epson branded carts.
I think that this is great. It helps protect some of their customers
who make poor choices.
The after-market cartridge manufacturers are, apparently, working on
a method of defeating this ...
It probably will be illegal.
A quick phone call to Epson UK's tech support this afternoon
(eventually) confirmed this scenario but he wasn't prepared to give
out any details about how the detection is done.
You really cannot blame them.
My guess is via the chip on the cartridge. According to the serial
number on my printer it was made during the last week of April :-(
Just to make sure the printer wasn't faulty I bought a set of Epson
branded carts this evening and lo-and-behold they work fine.
Now you are making wise choices. Always use the best ink for your
printer. If you want to use crap ink then get a crap printer. A
lexmark inkjet printer will do the job.
Let me clue you in to something here. I know about the compatible
cartridge industry - which you obviously don't - as I used to be the
Sales Director for a company that recycled old cartridges. There is
nothing inferior or damaging about the ink used, indeed in many cases it
is of superior quality to the branded stuff. The factories where these
cartridges are manufactured are just as high-tech as the branded ones.
You may be surprised to learn that some of these factories actually
produce the branded article too!
As to your points above. No manufacturer has a right to make decisions
for it's customers. How would you react if your car manufacturer said
you have to use their brand of petrol/diesel, and then increased the
price of that fuel by 50%? Ink is a consumable item. It does not damage
the printer - even HP acknowledged that in an open letter to wholesalers
more than 5 years ago.
There is nothing illegal about making a compatible part for anything,
unless it infringes a patent. Don't you think that the printer
manufacturers would have sued the pants off all the compatible makers by
now if they thought they could?
You're right about not blaming the guy for not telling me how it was
done ... but I had to ask :-) They're as entitled to their commercial
secrets as anyone else.
I didn't make a wise choice. I had no choice. If I wanted to use the
printer I had to buy the branded cartridges ... where's my freedom to
choose?
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TJ
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Taliesyn wrote:
| Quote: |
Most of us in this newsgroup do not drink our printer inks, even if
they're American made. There was a strange glow coming from one brand I
tried so I tossed them out the window. Next day there was a hole 10 feet
in diameter. Other than than I've seen nothing of note . . . ;-)
I just printed a gorgeous 92 page booklet (full pages folded in half) in
High Quality on 6.3 mil 120g/m2 matte paper. It's got about 80 photos in
full color. Staples are hand inserted in measured holes. Booklet is then
pressed under a 100 pound weight for 2 days until it is perfectly flat.
An exacta knife is then used to squarely trim the vertical right side of
the booklet. Booklet comes with an accompanying 2 CD set, again with
labels and liners in full color. My cost in ink (I used a full set of
cartridges) - $5.00. Had I used OEM, it would have been close to a $100
(Canadian dollars). Am I obsessed with aftermarket ink? No. I just use
it because of the price. No one should have to pay $100 for ink to
create a booklet and 2 CDs.
-Taliesyn
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Each time you let us in on the amount of money you save by using
aftermarket ink, you take pains to assure us that you're talking about
Canadian dollars, not US. Well, that distinction is getting smaller and
smaller. According to the June 2 Syracuse, NY Post-Standard, the
Canadian dollar just closed at $0.9418 US, cracking the 94 cents-level
for the first time since July 1977. Economic prognosticators are
predicting that the two will be at par by year's end. Of course, we all
know how reliable economists' predictions are...
It's too bad the US government, in their great benevolence, is about to
make it much more difficult for you Canadians to come over here and
spend those newly-powerful dollars, by requiring passports for the first
time in over 200 years. More government intervention, making things
worse instead of better.
TJ
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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SteveG
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Arthur Entlich wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Steve,
I was wondering if you might know... I have never seen this offered in
Canada, where you could buy the printer with or without the ink
cartridges from a factory sealed box, do you know if this might be the
result of EU legislation regarding consumables?
I'm quite surprised by it, actually.
Art
|
Art,
I really don't know why, or how, this has come about in the UK or even
if it just the UK but this isn't the first printer Epson have offered
like this.
I'll email a couple of my European colleagues and get them to check it
out for me in France, Germany and Holland and let you know what they find.
Sorry I can't be of more assistance :-)
--
Regards
Steve G |
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SteveG
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Bob Headrick wrote:
| Quote: | "SteveG" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:ht18i.29544$Ro3.28410@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
On the subject of quality and quality assurance, how can you be 100%
certain that your oem ink is actually up to specification? I've never
seen cartridges with serial numbers or QA stickers on them. There's no
traceability at all.
Take a look at any HP original cartrdige. They have unique serial
numbers and typically include human readable information indicating the
particular production line as well as data and time of manufacture.
Somewhere (not available to you or me) is a database that provides a
great deal of tracability back to ink and silicon.
Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
Thanks for the info Bob. It's been like a million years since I used an |
HP inkjet printer so wasn't aware of the serial numbering. I retract my
previous statement about traceability :-)
--
Regards
Steve G |
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SteveG
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Arthur Entlich wrote:
| Quote: | I don't want to come off sounding like I am opposed to 3rd party
consumables, because I am not, and use them myself, with little or no
problems (at least nothing worse than when I use OEM), however, I would
like to add to some of this discussion. Epson, Lexmark and HP have all
successfully sued 3rd party cartridge manufacturers for producing new
cartridges, which often did, by necessity violate patents (they wouldn't
work otherwise.
Refilling is another matter, because you are reusing the manufacturers
own product. That's a bit stickier a deal, and is why the manufacturers
have attempted to make their cartridges are difficult to refill as
possible. In the case of toner cartridges, some literally burn out some
of the circuitry when they become empty to make it more costly to repair
and refill them.
|
Art,
If the after-market manufacturers infringe patents when designing and
making their products then I would defend the oem's right to sue .. and
hope they would win. I'm a businessman and have patents of my own and
would be down like a ton of bricks on anyone I found infringing them.
--
Regards
Steve G |
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SteveG
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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SteveG wrote:
| Quote: | SteveG wrote:
Hi all, I'm new to this group but have been using Epson printers for
several years. Just recently I purchased an R265 and so far have been
very pleased with it but tonight I have a problem.
The printer came with a set of S-Vision compatible cartridges. Tonight
the printer reported that the Black one needed replacing so I got out
an identical replacement (same manufacturer) and went through the
process of replacement.
When I got to the ink charging part of the replacement cycle the
printer reported that the new cartridge is incompatible and refused to
complete the cycle. Putting the original cartridge back in results in
the same thing happening - odd, as it's been in the printer for about
6 weeks now.
Oh, and before Measekite goes on about ruining the printer by using
non-original inks - don't bother wearing out your fingers on the
keyboard, It's my printer and I'll do what I want with it. Neither
you, nor Epson, have a right to tell me what consumables to use in it.
There, rant over :-)
Am I missing a trick here? Is there something I need to do to make the
printer think the cartridge is a good one? Have I bought a duff
cartridge?
As a supplemental question, has anyone tried the continuous ink system
being touted for the R265? It only costs the same as a set of Epson
branded cartridges so could be an attractive prospect ... if it's any good.
Here's a link to one site that sells them - http://tinyurl.com/2feoet
- and bugger me if they don't have a note about the date of manufacture
on the site!
|
I went to buy a CISS kit yesterday but the retailer advised against it.
The first thing he asked my was how old the printer was and when I told
him he said the CISS kit probably wouldn't work either. Ho Hum!
--
Regards
Steve G |
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Arthur Entlich
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
Art
SteveG wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Entlich wrote:
I don't want to come off sounding like I am opposed to 3rd party
consumables, because I am not, and use them myself, with little or no
problems (at least nothing worse than when I use OEM), however, I
would like to add to some of this discussion. Epson, Lexmark and HP
have all successfully sued 3rd party cartridge manufacturers for
producing new cartridges, which often did, by necessity violate
patents (they wouldn't work otherwise.
Refilling is another matter, because you are reusing the manufacturers
own product. That's a bit stickier a deal, and is why the
manufacturers have attempted to make their cartridges are difficult to
refill as possible. In the case of toner cartridges, some literally
burn out some of the circuitry when they become empty to make it more
costly to repair and refill them.
Art,
If the after-market manufacturers infringe patents when designing and
making their products then I would defend the oem's right to sue .. and
hope they would win. I'm a businessman and have patents of my own and
would be down like a ton of bricks on anyone I found infringing them.
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Taliesyn
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Arthur Entlich wrote:
| Quote: | The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
|
..... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!
-Taliesyn |
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TJ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Arthur Entlich wrote:
| Quote: | The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge that
they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
Art
SteveG wrote:
Art,
If the after-market manufacturers infringe patents when designing and
making their products then I would defend the oem's right to sue ..
and hope they would win. I'm a businessman and have patents of my own
and would be down like a ton of bricks on anyone I found infringing them.
|
Precisely my point in another post, Art. I have no problem with proper
use of the patent system, but this kind of stuff is something else.
Oh, and Steve, I'm a businessman, too - in the business of growing food
and ornamental plants. I've done some plant breeding over the years, and
there is a registration process in the US analogous to patents that
protects my work in the same way, preventing people from reproducing my
varieties or selling the seed without my permission. So I do know what
you are talking about.
TJ
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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TJ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Taliesyn wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Entlich wrote:
The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge
that they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing, or
actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!
-Taliesyn
|
Substitute "tobacco" for "food" and "nicotine" for "some chemical" in
the above statements and it gets much easier to imagine.
TJ
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
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measekite
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Taliesyn wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Entlich wrote:
The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge
that they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing,
or actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!
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And you can choose not to use an inkjet.
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Taliesyn
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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measekite wrote:
| Quote: |
Taliesyn wrote:
Arthur Entlich wrote:
The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge
that they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing,
or actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will not
install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses (and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us to
only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever they
may be!
And you can choose...
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To keep the inkjet, but instead "PLONK!" the Measekite troll -
permanently! It's called freedom of choice.
-Taliesyn |
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measekite
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Epson R265 - aftermarket cartridges |
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Taliesyn wrote:
| Quote: | measekite wrote:
Taliesyn wrote:
Arthur Entlich wrote:
The patents are a guise to allow for the suit.
For instance, brand X will incorporate a "feature" into a cartridge
that they will patent. The "feature" often does little to nothing,
or actually is a deterrent to the ability to use 3rd party product,
however, the firmware is written such that without that "feature"
present in the cartridge, the cartridge is not recognized or will
not install properly.
This is an abusive use of the patent legislation.
.... And which is done in the name of greed and nothing to do with
protecting the printer, which often costs less than the ink it uses
(and
sometimes thrown in as a freebie for buying a camera or computer).
Imagine the food industry adding some chemical that would addict us
to only their product and make us come back for more. Well, this is
what
printer makers are trying to do - force us to come back ONLY to them.
This must be seen as illegal and should immediately be outlawed by all
governments. We don't like being held hostage. We must have total
freedom of choice in all matters related to consumables, whatever
they may be!
And you can choose...
To keep the inkjet, but instead "PLONK!" the Measekite troll -
permanently! It's called freedom of choice.
-Taliesyn
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