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JM
Guest
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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A customer of mine (I'm an IT-for-hire person) has Comcast business class
cable internet service. A few weeks ago they started experiencing
intermittent internet. They have a Comcast/Netgear combo device
(router/modem/firewall) that we have configured for what they call "router
mode," which I call "bridge mode." Either way, we have a static IP address
that is passed through to our LAN, NAT and firewall in the device turned
off. I have the IP address configured on one of the NICs in a Novell
server. The second NIC in the server is for the LAN, with the server giving
out DHCP. There have been no problems there. The Novell server also is our
main app server and our email (Groupwise) server. When the internet is
down, everything else works fine. And I changed out the WAN NIC twice.
Point being there are no indications that the server is behaving in a way
that would cause the internet problems.
Each morning when they show up for work the internet is down. They call me,
and I start trying to ping both the IP of the Netgear (gateway address) and
the server (static IP). Usually, I cannot get a response from either
address. Occasionally I can get a response from the gateway, but not the
server (and of course I can never get the server and not the gateway). This
weekend I performed random ping tests to the gateway, and I caught it down
at least 5 times.
Comcast has changed out the Netgear unit 2 times (meaning we've had 3 of the
units). They monitored the device for several days and say it does not go
"off-line." However, this morning they told me that, yet neither I nor the
support rep could ping the gateway. She offered to "reset the modem" for
me. As soon as she did, I could ping the gateway, the server, and the
internet was up at the office.
Comcast's theory - after many, many support calls, as well as changing out
the box twice - is that something on the client's network side is "locking
up" their device (the Netgear).
Does that make any sense?
jm |
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Warren H
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
| Quote: | A customer of mine (I'm an IT-for-hire person) has Comcast business
class cable internet service. A few weeks ago they started
experiencing intermittent internet. They have a Comcast/Netgear combo
device (router/modem/firewall) that we have configured for what they
call "router mode," which I call "bridge mode." Either way, we have a
static IP address that is passed through to our LAN, NAT and firewall
in the device turned off. I have the IP address configured on one of
the NICs in a Novell server. The second NIC in the server is for the
LAN, with the server giving out DHCP. There have been no problems
there. The Novell server also is our main app server and our email
(Groupwise) server. When the internet is down, everything else works
fine. And I changed out the WAN NIC twice. Point being there are no
indications that the server is behaving in a way that would cause the
internet problems.
Each morning when they show up for work the internet is down. They
call me, and I start trying to ping both the IP of the Netgear
(gateway address) and the server (static IP). Usually, I cannot get a
response from either address. Occasionally I can get a response from
the gateway, but not the server (and of course I can never get the
server and not the gateway). This weekend I performed random ping
tests to the gateway, and I caught it down at least 5 times.
Comcast has changed out the Netgear unit 2 times (meaning we've had 3
of the units). They monitored the device for several days and say it
does not go "off-line." However, this morning they told me that, yet
neither I nor the support rep could ping the gateway. She offered to
"reset the modem" for me. As soon as she did, I could ping the
gateway, the server, and the internet was up at the office.
Comcast's theory - after many, many support calls, as well as changing
out the box twice - is that something on the client's network side is
"locking up" their device (the Netgear).
Does that make any sense?
|
You start by saying that there are intermittent outages, but you only
specifically mention it being down first thing in the morning. Are there
on-going problems at random times during the day, or is this only
happening when the connection has been idle for some time?
If the problem appears often after the use of the Internet connection
has been unused for a period of time, then I would check to see if the
server is shutting down the NIC because of some power management
setting.
Also, if it only happens overnight, set it up to run ping continuously
overnight, and see if the problem goes away.
Something else you could try is instead of having the Novell server
connected to the Internet, connect a different system. Of course this
wouldn't be practical during the work day, so you'd probably have to do
this over the weekend. Make sure there are no power management settings
to shut parts of that system down when idle, and test to see if the
Internet connection goes down.
BTW... You don't mention how you get the connection back up when it goes
down. Are you rebooting the server? Power-cycling the modem? Calling
Comcast, and having them reset the modem remotely? What does, and what
doesn't work to bring the connection back up?
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker |
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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| Quote: | A customer of mine (I'm an IT-for-hire person) has Comcast business class
cable internet service. A few weeks ago they started experiencing
intermittent internet. They have a Comcast/Netgear combo device
(router/modem/firewall) that we have configured for what they call "router
mode," which I call "bridge mode." Either way, we have a static IP
address that is passed through to our LAN, NAT and firewall in the device
turned off. I have the IP address configured on one of the NICs in a
Novell server. The second NIC in the server is for the LAN, with the
server giving out DHCP. There have been no problems there. The Novell
server also is our main app server and our email (Groupwise) server. When
the internet is down, everything else works fine. And I changed out the
WAN NIC twice. Point being there are no indications that the server is
behaving in a way that would cause the internet problems.
Each morning when they show up for work the internet is down. They call
me, and I start trying to ping both the IP of the Netgear (gateway
address) and the server (static IP). Usually, I cannot get a response
from either address. Occasionally I can get a response from the gateway,
but not the server (and of course I can never get the server and not the
gateway). This weekend I performed random ping tests to the gateway, and
I caught it down at least 5 times.
Comcast has changed out the Netgear unit 2 times (meaning we've had 3 of
the units). They monitored the device for several days and say it does
not go "off-line." However, this morning they told me that, yet neither
I nor the support rep could ping the gateway. She offered to "reset the
modem" for me. As soon as she did, I could ping the gateway, the server,
and the internet was up at the office.
Comcast's theory - after many, many support calls, as well as changing
out the box twice - is that something on the client's network side is
"locking up" their device (the Netgear).
Does that make any sense?
|
Thank you very much for your excellent reply.
Here are some answers (I'll get other answers this evening).
| Quote: | You start by saying that there are intermittent outages, but you only
specifically mention it being down first thing in the morning. Are there
on-going problems at random times during the day, or is this only
happening when the connection has been idle for some time?
|
It happens throughout the day, mostly on the server's static address (for
terminology clarification, I'll use "gateway" address and "server" address
from now on). This fact led Comcast to conclude pretty early on that the
problem was on our side, since when we called during the day they could ping
the gateway address. That was reasonable, enough, until I started finding
the gateway address down at certain times, too, and often it's down in the
morning. However, over the weekend, I had failed ping tests to the gateway
at various times, day and night. Another fact perhaps worth mentioning is
that every workstation in the business is turned off at night and weekends.
So whatever is happening along the lines of Comcast's theory is limited
solely to server activity. In other words, if some activity on the lan side
indeed is "locking up" the Netgear, it's emanating from the server, not a
workstation, i.e., a malware-infected computer flooding the network. (and
I'm being open-minded, but I have my doubts in any event that something
lan-side could indeed lock up a cable modem). In general, there seems to be
no relationship to idle time.
| Quote: | If the problem appears often after the use of the Internet connection has
been unused for a period of time, then I would check to see if the server
is shutting down the NIC because of some power management setting.
|
This does not appear to be the case.
| Quote: | Also, if it only happens overnight, set it up to run ping continuously
overnight, and see if the problem goes away.
|
As mentioned, it happens day and night.
| Quote: | Something else you could try is instead of having the Novell server
connected to the Internet, connect a different system. Of course this
wouldn't be practical during the work day, so you'd probably have to do
this over the weekend. Make sure there are no power management settings to
shut parts of that system down when idle, and test to see if the Internet
connection goes down.
|
That is my plan for tonight. I'm going down there in a little while to
connect a newly-formatted PC to the connection. That should be very
informative.
| Quote: |
BTW... You don't mention how you get the connection back up when it goes
down. Are you rebooting the server? Power-cycling the modem? Calling
Comcast, and having them reset the modem remotely? What does, and what
doesn't work to bring the connection back up?
|
That is another strange aspect to the story. For 3 straight days, the modem
began working again during my call to Comcast. I would call in, and after
identifying the customer the Comcast rep would attempt to log in to the
Netgear to "take a look." The router would start working immediately. In
fact, during that 3-4 day stretch, one of the reps and I used the "sleep
mode" analogy, such as you mentioned with the power management suggestions.
However, many Comcast folks have assured me the Netgear has no sleep mode.
This morning when I called in, the Comcast rep offered to reset the modem,
which brought the internet back up. When I said that indicated a problem on
their end (or with their equipment), she reiterated Comcast's position that
since they've swapped the unit out twice the problem MUST be on the client
side. They think something is locking the Netgear up, requiring a reset
sometimes, while other times not.
jm |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
| Quote: | "$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:46365f47$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
JM wrote:
I'd start with a separate router and modem setup if possible.
Should make it easier to isolate your problem and it might just go away.
Funny you should suggest that, as I just returned from driving halfway to
the customer site to install a Linksys. Instead, I turned around, deciding
to have them turn off the server tonight to see if the gateway still "locks
up" or otherwise stops responding anytime between now and 7:30 a.m tomorrow
morning. I have a ping test monitoring the gateway right now. If the
gateway still has problems with the server and all workstations turned off,
I think Comcast's theory is pretty much debunked.
Agree?
|
It would go a long way towards it if indeed all the LAN equipment is off,
but that really doesn't solve anything.
Next try sticking that Linksys in and reconfiguring the Netgear as a
plain router (I assume that can be done) or replace it with a another
router. |
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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After further consideration, I don't see much value in this bit of
troubleshooting. Unless the unit is bad in a manufacturer defect kind of
way (which I seriously doubt, since we're on our third one), there is no way
the unit will fail with no traffic going through it.
As $Bill suggested, perhaps it would have been better for me to go ahead and
install the Linksys and remove the server-as-internet-gateway from the
equation.
jm
"JM" <jake@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f_KdnbrJ6sOz96vbnZ2dnUVZ_tmknZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:46365f47$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
JM wrote:
I'd start with a separate router and modem setup if possible.
Should make it easier to isolate your problem and it might just go away.
Funny you should suggest that, as I just returned from driving halfway to
the customer site to install a Linksys. Instead, I turned around,
deciding to have them turn off the server tonight to see if the gateway
still "locks up" or otherwise stops responding anytime between now and
7:30 a.m tomorrow morning. I have a ping test monitoring the gateway
right now. If the gateway still has problems with the server and all
workstations turned off, I think Comcast's theory is pretty much debunked.
Agree?
jm
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:46365f47$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
| Quote: | JM wrote:
I'd start with a separate router and modem setup if possible.
Should make it easier to isolate your problem and it might just go away.
|
Funny you should suggest that, as I just returned from driving halfway to
the customer site to install a Linksys. Instead, I turned around, deciding
to have them turn off the server tonight to see if the gateway still "locks
up" or otherwise stops responding anytime between now and 7:30 a.m tomorrow
morning. I have a ping test monitoring the gateway right now. If the
gateway still has problems with the server and all workstations turned off,
I think Comcast's theory is pretty much debunked.
Agree?
jm |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
I'd start with a separate router and modem setup if possible.
Should make it easier to isolate your problem and it might just go away. |
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:46368f89$0$4670$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
| Quote: | JM wrote:
"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:46365f47$0$9942$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
JM wrote:
I'd start with a separate router and modem setup if possible.
Should make it easier to isolate your problem and it might just go away.
Funny you should suggest that, as I just returned from driving halfway to
the customer site to install a Linksys. Instead, I turned around,
deciding to have them turn off the server tonight to see if the gateway
still "locks up" or otherwise stops responding anytime between now and
7:30 a.m tomorrow morning. I have a ping test monitoring the gateway
right now. If the gateway still has problems with the server and all
workstations turned off, I think Comcast's theory is pretty much
debunked.
Agree?
It would go a long way towards it if indeed all the LAN equipment is off,
but that really doesn't solve anything.
Next try sticking that Linksys in and reconfiguring the Netgear as a
plain router (I assume that can be done) or replace it with a another
router.
|
The Netgear is provided by Comcast. It's a combo router/cable modem, and
it's the only device they offer for business use with static IP.
jm |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
| Quote: |
The Netgear is provided by Comcast. It's a combo router/cable modem, and
it's the only device they offer for business use with static IP.
|
Borrow one or buy your own for $40 and sell it later if need be. At least
you'll have a chance of finding the problem for $40 (or less if you pass
it on when you're done) and I assume you already own the Linksys.
If it works with your equipment, they won't be able to pass the buck. |
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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"$Bill" <news@SPAMOLAtodbe.com> wrote in message
news:4636a9a9$0$8996$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
| Quote: | JM wrote:
The Netgear is provided by Comcast. It's a combo router/cable modem, and
it's the only device they offer for business use with static IP.
Borrow one or buy your own for $40 and sell it later if need be. At least
you'll have a chance of finding the problem for $40 (or less if you pass
it on when you're done) and I assume you already own the Linksys.
If it works with your equipment, they won't be able to pass the buck.
|
I asked about this a few days ago, and they told me they do not allow
customer-owned cable modems. I pressed the issue with another csr, who
insisted they cannot do this, since there is no way for them to provision
the service on equipment other than theirs. She asked me, "How in the world
would we configure it?"
jm |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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$Bill wrote:
| Quote: | JM wrote:
The Netgear is provided by Comcast. It's a combo router/cable modem,
and it's the only device they offer for business use with static IP.
Borrow one or buy your own for $40 and sell it later if need be. At least
you'll have a chance of finding the problem for $40 (or less if you pass
it on when you're done) and I assume you already own the Linksys.
If it works with your equipment, they won't be able to pass the buck.
|
It just dawned on me that you didn't say wether your Linksys was a modem
or router - I had assumed modem. |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
| Quote: |
I asked about this a few days ago, and they told me they do not allow
customer-owned cable modems. I pressed the issue with another csr, who
insisted they cannot do this, since there is no way for them to provision
the service on equipment other than theirs. She asked me, "How in the world
would we configure it?"
|
That's got to be both the funniest and stupidest thing I've heard lately.
Who trains these people ?
You should have told her the same way every other ISP does it.  |
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Warren H
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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$Bill wrote:
| Quote: | JM wrote:
I asked about this a few days ago, and they told me they do not allow
customer-owned cable modems. I pressed the issue with another csr,
who insisted they cannot do this, since there is no way for them to
provision the service on equipment other than theirs. She asked me,
"How in the world would we configure it?"
That's got to be both the funniest and stupidest thing I've heard
lately.
Who trains these people ?
You should have told her the same way every other ISP does it. :)
|
I don't think she meant that it wasn't possible in the global sense, but
rather it isn't something that they're allowed to do, and there aren't
any work-arounds, either.
I don't know why Comcast requires that those business-class customers
use only the modem that they provide, or why they chose that particular
modem. I suspect it has to do with an SLA, and their need to minimize
the variables out of their control.
But it's not a training issue. The company could provision a
customer-owned modem, but they've chosen not to allow the agents that
ability. So they, the agents, don't have any way "in the world" to
provision it, but that's probably not the best way she could have gotten
that point across.
BTW, this brings up another point. Is there an SLA in the contract? The
cost of business-class service has gone down considerably in most
markets, and that may be because they only include priority support, and
not an SLA these days But I suspect that if there is an SLA, it would
have something to do with the modem being up, but not necessarily
anything beyond. If there's an SLA, they would probably keep records to
protect their liability, and those records might also be available to
the agent. I'd ask what they show. And if there is no SLA, and they
don't keep those kinds of records, there ought to still be a way to
escalate the issue to the NOC, and have them do such monitoring.
It would be hard for a customer to do the monitoring themselves. A
DOCSIS cable modem has an IP address on it's WAN side. Normally it's a
class A private range IP address, so monitoring the modem would require
being on their network. And it would also require knowing what the
modem's IP address is, and that's not something that there is any way
for the customer to discover. Perhaps the CRS is able to see what that
IP address is, but it's also possible the tools they have hide that
address as well.
I'm also curious about what the modem's indicator lights are indicating
during the problems. And I also wonder what the modem logs show.
Confirming that it's a TCP/IP problem, and not an RF problem (or vice
versa) is an important step that should have already been taken. (And
probably was, but, hey, if we're brainstorming...)
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker |
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JM
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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"Warren H" <wholzem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:r_KdnSlLmv9yxarbnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | $Bill wrote:
JM wrote:
I asked about this a few days ago, and they told me they do not allow
customer-owned cable modems. I pressed the issue with another csr, who
insisted they cannot do this, since there is no way for them to
provision the service on equipment other than theirs. She asked me,
"How in the world would we configure it?"
That's got to be both the funniest and stupidest thing I've heard lately.
Who trains these people ?
You should have told her the same way every other ISP does it. :)
I don't think she meant that it wasn't possible in the global sense, but
rather it isn't something that they're allowed to do, and there aren't any
work-arounds, either.
I don't know why Comcast requires that those business-class customers use
only the modem that they provide, or why they chose that particular modem.
I suspect it has to do with an SLA, and their need to minimize the
variables out of their control.
But it's not a training issue. The company could provision a
customer-owned modem, but they've chosen not to allow the agents that
ability. So they, the agents, don't have any way "in the world" to
provision it, but that's probably not the best way she could have gotten
that point across.
BTW, this brings up another point. Is there an SLA in the contract? The
cost of business-class service has gone down considerably in most markets,
and that may be because they only include priority support, and not an SLA
these days But I suspect that if there is an SLA, it would have something
to do with the modem being up, but not necessarily anything beyond. If
there's an SLA, they would probably keep records to protect their
liability, and those records might also be available to the agent. I'd ask
what they show. And if there is no SLA, and they don't keep those kinds of
records, there ought to still be a way to escalate the issue to the NOC,
and have them do such monitoring.
It would be hard for a customer to do the monitoring themselves. A DOCSIS
cable modem has an IP address on it's WAN side. Normally it's a class A
private range IP address, so monitoring the modem would require being on
their network. And it would also require knowing what the modem's IP
address is, and that's not something that there is any way for the
customer to discover. Perhaps the CRS is able to see what that IP address
is, but it's also possible the tools they have hide that address as well.
I'm also curious about what the modem's indicator lights are indicating
during the problems. And I also wonder what the modem logs show.
Confirming that it's a TCP/IP problem, and not an RF problem (or vice
versa) is an important step that should have already been taken. (And
probably was, but, hey, if we're brainstorming...)
|
The activities of the front panel lights don't tell me anything, although
I'm not sure I would know what I'm looking at anyway. The power light is
on, of course, as the "network" light (as the csr called it), indicating
sync with the ISP. Then there two opposing "lightening bolt" lights
(upstream/downstream) that flicker contstantly. They seem to flicker 3
times in unison, and then several times alternating. Then there are
numbered lights for the lan ports connected.
As for network monitoring, I asked about that, and, you're correct, it's not
something they can do from their local help desk. They simply don't have
the tools. I had another support group on the phone on Saturday, and she
actually referred to the "real" IP address, not our static (I wrote it down
if that would do any good). They could not monitor the network traffic,
either. Interestingly, she said her group could not even log in to the
Netgears. Comcast has recently purchased Time Warner - our old ISP - and
Adelphia. There seems to still be a lot of fragmentation.
The question remains: Why is the Netgear locking up? Some Comcast reps
still deny their equipment is ever going off line. But while I was at the
customer site today I proved it again, at least to my satisfaction. The
internet went down, I reset the Netgear, the internet came up.
While Comcast's basic stance is that the problem is on our side (after all,
they've tried 3 Netgears), one event seems to stop them all in their tracks
when I bring it up: Last Thursday during an outage, I called Comcast - as
has been my habit every day for 3 weeks - and the rep was in the process of
logging into the Netgear when the Netgear did a full power reset. For some
reason, this didn't flip my lid. I simply asked the Comcast rep, "What did
you just do?" He answered, "What do you mean?" When I told him the Netgear
powered off and back on, he didn't hesitate: He said, "That's never
supposed to happen. I'll have a tech out shortly." Thus, our 3rd Netgear.
With that in mind, what in the world are my options?
thanks to EVERYONE who has given of their experience and time in helping
brainstorm this issue.
jm |
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Warren H
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 1:14 am Post subject: Re: Help needed with intermittent internet |
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JM wrote:
| Quote: | While Comcast's basic stance is that the problem is on our side (after
all, they've tried 3 Netgears), one event seems to stop them all in
their tracks when I bring it up: Last Thursday during an outage, I
called Comcast - as has been my habit every day for 3 weeks - and the
rep was in the process of logging into the Netgear when the Netgear
did a full power reset. For some reason, this didn't flip my lid. I
simply asked the Comcast rep, "What did you just do?" He answered,
"What do you mean?" When I told him the Netgear powered off and back
on, he didn't hesitate: He said, "That's never supposed to happen.
I'll have a tech out shortly." Thus, our 3rd Netgear.
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When they replace the modem, are they just replacing the modem, or are
they also replacing the power cord and power supply brick? If they just
swapped the modem itself, the problem piece may be still sitting there.
And what is the power supply plugged into? If it's plugged into a power
strip, surge protector, or UPS, try taking that out of the mix. Plug the
power supply for the modem directly into a normal wall outlet. Use a
heavy-duty extension cord if there isn't one close enough.
In fact, if you can reach an outlet on a different circuit, try that --
especially if there's a laser printer (or any other appliance that
periodically needs to heat-up) plugged into the circuit it's on now.
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker |
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