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Rob Turk
Guest
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 Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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<calypso@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid> wrote in message
news:f1v5ar$svf$1@news1.carnet.hr...
| Quote: | Michael Giegerich <migieger@web.de> kenjka:
SATA and SCSI/SAS drives spin in different direction, that's the reason
why it's not recommended installing both type of drives in the same
case...
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That is the biggest load of balloney I've ever heard... This is so wrong I'm
not even going to try a real answer. If you believe that, get out of IT
fast, you're a danger to anything with a plug on it.
Rob |
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Rob Turk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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<calypso@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid> wrote in message
news:f2f5mf$55l$3@news1.carnet.hr...
| Quote: | Rob Turk <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> kenjka:
That is the biggest load of balloney I've ever heard... This is so wrong
I'm
not even going to try a real answer. If you believe that, get out of IT
fast, you're a danger to anything with a plug on it.
That's not mine... That's IBM's storage policy AFAIK, they don't mix SATA
and SAS drives in the same case... Why? Ask them, not me, all I know is
that
there is a possibility that vibrations of SAS drives can potentially cause
some errors on SATA drives on a long run...
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Unless you give me a link where IBM makes the clame that the drives spin in
opposite directions, it's your claim. And it's balloney.
SAS is just an electrical interface and a protocol definition. So is SATA.
So is SCSI. So is PATA. And so is Fibre Channel, ESDI, ST-506, CMD and SSA.
They are not in any way related to which direction the disk spins.
Rob |
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Steve Cousins
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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Andy wrote:
| Quote: | In article <0ksi1f.2e31.ln@luva.dyndns.org>, migieger@web.de says...
John L Rice:
"Michael Giegerich" <migieger@web.de> wrote in message
news:huit0f.kc32.ln@luva.dyndns.org...
LSI doesn't recommend this and warns against possible
data inconsistencies/losses. No further reason given
(or at least I didn't find it in their web pages).
How was it worded? Were they just warning people not to do something
obviously dumb like combining SAS and SATA drives into the same array?
If they are saying not to have a SAS array and a separate SATA array on the
same controller then I agree with Frank
it's actually due to the difference in rotational vibration that you're
not supposed to put both SAS & SATA drivers into the same array
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Is there any truth to this? I have a JBOD unit that has all SCSI drives
but some of them are 10K drives and some are 7200's. They have been
running for at least four years without a hitch.
I now have a new 1U server that has two 7200 SATA drives mirrored. It
has two free drive bays and I was planning on putting in two 10K
Raptors. Is this not advised due to differing rotational speed? I can
imagine that harmonic vibration would resonate at some other frequencies
but how does this affect the drives themselves? I'd think it has a lot
to do with the structure that the drives are in and how well vibrations
are damped.
What about fans in these 1U servers? Some of these run at 15K RPM. I'd
imagine they would need to be taken into account too and if this was a
real problem there would be advisories about running certain speed
drives with certain speed fans.
Thanks for any information you can give.
Steve |
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Folkert Rienstra
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:41 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Rob Turk" <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> wrote in message news:cafbf$464b2688$4df850e0$3021@news.chello.nl
| Quote: | calypso@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid> wrote in message news:f2f5mf$55l$3@news1.carnet.hr...
Rob Turk <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> kenjka:
That is the biggest load of balloney I've ever heard... This is so wrong
I'm not even going to try a real answer. If you believe that, get out of IT
fast, you're a danger to anything with a plug on it.
That's not mine... That's IBM's storage policy AFAIK, they don't mix SATA
and SAS drives in the same case... Why? Ask them, not me, all I know is that
there is a possibility that vibrations of SAS drives can potentially cause
some errors on SATA drives on a long run...
Unless you give me a link where IBM makes the clame that the drives spin in
opposite directions, it's your claim. And it's balloney.
SAS is just an electrical interface and a protocol definition. So is SATA.
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SAS was even given the same connector arrangement as SATA so that
SAS and SATA drives drives could both be used in SAS cabinets
(but not in SATA cabinets).
| Quote: | So is SCSI. So is PATA. And so is Fibre Channel, ESDI, ST-506, CMD and SSA.
They are not in any way related to which direction the disk spins.
Rob |
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Folkert Rienstra
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:41 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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What exactly did you not get in the reactions here to that croat clown.
"Steve Cousins" <steve.cousins@maine.edu> wrote in message news:464B3F27.2040900@maine.edu
| Quote: | Andy wrote:
In article <0ksi1f.2e31.ln@luva.dyndns.org>, migieger@web.de says...
John L Rice:
"Michael Giegerich" migieger@web.de> wrote in message news:huit0f.kc32.ln@luva.dyndns.org...
LSI doesn't recommend this and warns against possible
data inconsistencies/losses. No further reason given
(or at least I didn't find it in their web pages).
How was it worded? Were they just warning people not to do something
obviously dumb like combining SAS and SATA drives into the same array?
If they are saying not to have a SAS array and a separate SATA array on the
same controller then I agree with Frank
it's actually due to the difference in rotational vibration that you're
not supposed to put both SAS & SATA drivers into the same array
Is there any truth to this? I have a JBOD unit that has all SCSI drives
but some of them are 10K drives and some are 7200's. They have been
running for at least four years without a hitch.
I now have a new 1U server that has two 7200 SATA drives mirrored. It
has two free drive bays and I was planning on putting in two 10K
Raptors. Is this not advised due to differing rotational speed? I can
imagine that harmonic vibration would resonate at some other frequencies
but how does this affect the drives themselves? I'd think it has a lot
to do with the structure that the drives are in and how well vibrations
are damped.
What about fans in these 1U servers? Some of these run at 15K RPM. I'd
imagine they would need to be taken into account too and if this was a
real problem there would be advisories about running certain speed
drives with certain speed fans.
Thanks for any information you can give.
Steve |
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Folkert Rienstra
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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<calypso@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid> wrote in message news:f2f5mf$55l$3@news1.carnet.hr
| Quote: | Rob Turk <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> kenjka:
That is the biggest load of balloney I've ever heard... This is so wrong I'm
not even going to try a real answer. If you believe that, get out of IT
fast, you're a danger to anything with a plug on it.
That's not mine... That's IBM's storage policy
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Ah, now it is IBM's fault that you made a spectacular fool out of yourself.
In other words: you made that up.
| Quote: | they don't mix SATA and SAS drives in the same case...
Why? Ask them, not me,
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Too late, you already answered that for them. It's the spin direction.
But you don't.
| Quote: | is that there is a possibility that vibrations of SAS drives can
potentially cause some errors on SATA drives on a long run...
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Keep up the act, you're quite convincing. |
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Steve Cousins
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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Folkert Rienstra wrote:
| Quote: |
What exactly did you not get in the reactions here to that croat clown.
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I sympathised with most of the reactions which is why I was puzzled by
Andy's message that seemed to give creedence to the argument against
mixing types. Since it is similar to what I have done and plan to do in
the future, I thought I'd ask Andy (and others who might have a thought
about it) what the basis was for the message. I haven't found a
resounding credible source for this information so I'll plan on
continuing the practice. I hope I haven't caused disharmony.
Steve |
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Eric Moore
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:56 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote in message news:46351fb6$1$97225$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
| Quote: | "Michael Giegerich" <migieger@web.de> wrote in message news:huit0f.kc32.ln@luva.dyndns.org
LSI doesn't recommend this and warns against possible
data inconsistencies/losses. No further reason given
(or at least I didn't find it in their web pages).
Sounds like they made a lemon and still try to sell it without fixing it.
If it wasn't designed to be able to do this then it simply wouldn't let
you do it.
Nevertheless, did anybody out there try this? Results?
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I'm developer of the mpt fusion linux driver. Mike, who at LSI told you that you can't mix SAS/SATA drives on the 1068? If your
running mpt fusion (not megaraid), you can mix SATA and SAS on a single controller as long as the devices are configured at single
devices, non-raid. If you create a RAID volume, then it has to all SAS or SATA drives in that raid volume. Since we support two
logical volumes, its possible to have one raid volume as SATA, and the other as SAS. Here is a link to our website containing
documentation on our products
http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_home/host_bus_adapters/sas_hbas/index.html
Eric Moore
LSI Corporation
Eric.Moore@lsi.com |
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Rob Turk
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Eric Moore" <ericmooreco@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:hMWdnandxfDPWdbbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@adelphia.com...
| Quote: |
I'm developer of the mpt fusion linux driver. Mike, who at LSI told you
that you can't mix SAS/SATA drives on the 1068? If your running mpt
fusion (not megaraid), you can mix SATA and SAS on a single controller as
long as the devices are configured at single devices, non-raid. If you
create a RAID volume, then it has to all SAS or SATA drives in that raid
volume. Since we support two logical volumes, its possible to have one
raid volume as SATA, and the other as SAS. Here is a link to our website
containing documentation on our products
http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_home/host_bus_adapters/sas_hbas/index.html
Eric Moore
LSI Corporation
Eric.Moore@lsi.com
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Finally some first-hand information! Thanks for chiming in, Eric.
Rob |
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John L Rice
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote in message
news:464a4b5e$0$97269$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net...
| Quote: | "John L Rice" <Drummer@ImJohn.com> wrote in message
news:134ahc0p6fmfqec@corp.supernews.com...
} >> If they are saying not to have a SAS array and a separate SATA array
on
} >> the same controller then I agree with
}
} >> Frank.
}
} > Who?
}
} uuhhmm . . . you . . . (seriously, I don't know what the hell I was
} thinking. Did you ever use the name 'Frank'??)
You mean: "Frank" <nospam@ (home of the braindead) mindspring.com
Neh. As far as my records go the last we saw of him was in 2001.
That brainfart of yours must have spent quite some time in the making.
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My subconscious makes a conscientious effort to get my conscious farting
unconscionably.
John L Rice |
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Folkert Rienstra
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Rob Turk" <wipe_this_r.turk@chello.nl> wrote in message news:73e55$464bf79f$4df850e0$7993@news.chello.nl
| Quote: | "Eric Moore" <ericmooreco@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:hMWdnandxfDPWdbbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@adelphia.com...
I'm developer of the mpt fusion linux driver. Mike, who at LSI told you
that you can't mix SAS/SATA drives on the 1068? If your running mpt
fusion (not megaraid), you can mix SATA and SAS on a single controller
as long as the devices are configured at single devices, non-raid. If you
create a RAID volume, then it has to all SAS or SATA drives in that raid
volume. Since we support two logical volumes, its possible to have one
raid volume as SATA, and the other as SAS.
Here is a link to our website containing documentation on our products
http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_home/host_bus_adapters/sas_hbas/index.html
Eric Moore
LSI Corporation
Eric.Moore@lsi.com
Finally some first-hand information! Thanks for chiming in, Eric.
|
Unfortunately he didn't clear up the op's real point of concern at all:
why "LSI" "warns against possible data inconsistencies/losses".
In other words will the controller/driver actually allow SAS and
SATA drives in the same RAID volume when it really shouldn't?
A simple yes or no would have sufficed. Possibly accompanied
by a firm "My colleague Mike at LSI, he was just plain wrong".
Now the question is still open.
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Eric Moore
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:44 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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| Quote: | In other words will the controller/driver actually allow SAS and
SATA drives in the same RAID volume when it really shouldn't?
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Folkert - I will check with the firmware folks next Monday. As long as I've worked on the project, I've been told raid volumes
need to entirely SAS or SATA, not mixed. I doubt it has anything to do with rotational speed as mentioned in some of this thread,
but I will check. I will reply with my findings next week.
Thanks,
Eric |
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Michael Giegerich
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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Eric Moore:
....
| Quote: | "Michael Giegerich" <migieger@web.de> wrote in message news:huit0f.kc32.ln@luva.dyndns.org
LSI doesn't recommend this and warns against possible
data inconsistencies/losses. No further reason given
(or at least I didn't find it in their web pages).
....
Nevertheless, did anybody out there try this? Results?
I'm developer of the mpt fusion linux driver. Mike, who at LSI told you that you can't mix SAS/SATA drives on the 1068? If your
running mpt fusion (not megaraid), you can mix SATA and SAS on a single controller as long as the devices are configured at single
devices, non-raid. If you create a RAID volume, then it has to all SAS or SATA drives in that raid volume. Since we support two
logical volumes, its possible to have one raid volume as SATA, and the other as SAS. Here is a link to our website containing
documentation on our products
|
Great. Thanks a lot for this information.
I'll use FreeBSD's mpt fusion driver, thus I guess
two raid 1 arrays, one 2x SCSI and the other 2x
SATA, should work together well...
The warning I mentioned is indeed found in the
Embedded MegaRAID Software User's Guide Ver 1.0
(page 1-4).
I understand (now) that this is software and not
hardware (firmware) related.
| Quote: | http://www.lsi.com/storage_home/products_home/host_bus_adapters/sas_hbas/index.html
|
I found a confirming information in the
"TECHNICAL MANUAL LSISAS1068 PCI-X to 8-Port
Serial Attached SCSI/SATA Controller" (Oct. 2005,
Ver. 2.1) that the LSISAS1068 "allows mixed
connections to SAS or SATA targets" (page 1-10).
As soon as I get hold of the 2 Seagate ST3500630NS,
I'll check for myself... (will report back)...
--
Michael Giegerich |
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Folkert Rienstra
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:04 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Michael Giegerich" <migieger@web.de> wrote in message news:ua1t2f.i5m.ln@luva.dyndns.org
| Quote: | Eric Moore:
...
"Michael Giegerich" <migieger@web.de> wrote in message news:huit0f.kc32.ln@luva.dyndns.org
LSI doesn't recommend this and warns against possible
data inconsistencies/losses. No further reason given
(or at least I didn't find it in their web pages).
...
Nevertheless, did anybody out there try this? Results?
I'm developer of the mpt fusion linux driver. Mike, who at LSI told you that you can't mix SAS/SATA drives on the 1068? If
your running mpt fusion (not megaraid), you can mix SATA and SAS on a single controller as long as the devices are configured
at single devices, non-raid. If you create a RAID volume, then it has to all SAS or SATA drives in that raid volume. Since
we support two logical volumes, its possible to have one raid volume as SATA, and the other as SAS. Here is a link to our
website containing documentation on our products
Great. Thanks a lot for this information.
I'll use FreeBSD's mpt fusion driver, thus I guess
two raid 1 arrays, one 2x SCSI and the other 2x
SATA, should work together well...
The warning I mentioned is indeed found in the
Embedded MegaRAID Software User's Guide Ver 1.0
(page 1-4).
|
So this is a concealed warning that their software is broken,
as originally suggested.
| Quote: | I understand (now) that this is software and not hardware
(firmware) related.
|
Minor difference, firmware is software also.
And embedded software is some kind of firmware too.
Can these people at LSI not even write one sentence without starting
another confusion? : 'mixed' and 'or' are contradictory.
| Quote: |
As soon as I get hold of the 2 Seagate ST3500630NS,
I'll check for myself... (will report back)...
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Check what? |
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Eric Moore
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: Re: SAS and SATA (arrays) on one controller (LSISAS1068)? |
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"Folkert Rienstra" <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote in message news:46536f64$0$97234>>
| Quote: | I'll use FreeBSD's mpt fusion driver, thus I guess
two raid 1 arrays, one 2x SCSI and the other 2x
SATA, should work together well...
The warning I mentioned is indeed found in the
Embedded MegaRAID Software User's Guide Ver 1.0
(page 1-4).
So this is a concealed warning that their software is broken,
as originally suggested.
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Folkert - This is what I found out. The reason why RAID volumes can't be mixed is due to the way bad block management is
implemented between SCSI(SAS) and SATA is different. For example, in SCSI standards, there is automatic reassignment of bad blocks
when an bad sector is encountered, whereas with SATA this is not specified in the standards, so firmware has to manually handle this
by allocating space at the end of the drive for bad block table and free space for available sectors. I guess there would be
issues when there is a mirror, and a bad sector was encounterred when one drive was SATA, and the mirror was SAS.. Bad Block
Management would be spelled out in the SCSI(SAS) standards are on www.t10.org. Let me know if you need me to point out which spec
to read. The SATA standards can be found on www.t13.org, and https://www.sata-io.org/. In addition, another reason, is we were
forced to not mix SAS/SATA in RAID volumes from some of our big box customers, such as HP, Dell, and IBM.
| Quote: | I found a confirming information in the
"TECHNICAL MANUAL LSISAS1068 PCI-X to 8-Port
Serial Attached SCSI/SATA Controller" (Oct. 2005,
Ver. 2.1) that the LSISAS1068 "allows mixed
connections to SAS or SATA targets" (page 1-10).
Can these people at LSI not even write one sentence without starting
another confusion? : 'mixed' and 'or' are contradictory.
|
As long as the end devices are not members of the RAID volume, you can have a mix of SAS and SATA devices connected to the
controller. If your creating a RAID volume, they have to all the same. Is that confusing or contradictory?
Eric |
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