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Ed Nielsen
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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In most MDUs where the cable company (or authorized contractor) installed
the cabling at their own expense, the cable company signs a Right of Entry
for a set period of time, usually 7 years. After the ROE expires, the
cabling belongs to the property and is free to be used for whatever the
property owner sees fit.
CIAO!
Ed N.
--
CIAO!
Ed N.
"Timothy Daniels" <TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote in message
news:462a9326$1$18901$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
| Quote: | "$Bill" wrote:
Timothy Daniels wrote:
If they supply the parts and labor for the in-house wiring,
they can probably legally retrieve it and/or prevent you from
using it for satellite reception if you should close your account
with them.
I doubt that very much - as far as I'm concerned that's donated
cabling if they didn't charge you for it and if they charged you
for it, then it's obviously yours. They are entitled to get their
boxes (set top, modem, etc) back, but that's it.
What's the legal difference between the "boxes" and the cabling?
I recently stopped the installation for a cable TV/Internet account
because the idiot installer had broken into our condo association's
OTA cabling system to facilitate a room-to-room cable extension.
His supervisor told him to rip out all the cabling that he had put in
and to vacate the premises. Eventually, his company made the
supervisor come out and repair the damage to our OTA cabling,
but it wasn't until Time Warner had established that *we* owned
all of our cabling. Apparently, the legal department has advised
Time Warner that what cables they put in they are free to break
into and rip out.
*TimDaniels* |
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Ed Nielsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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Not all states require a contractor's license for telecommunications system
installations. You would have to check with the particular state in
question.
--
CIAO!
Ed N.
"Warren H" <wholzem@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:o8mdnVzY4dIzvrbbnZ2dnUVZ_smonZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: |
Remember you'll need a contractor's license in any state. |
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Timothy Daniels
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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"$Bill" wsrote:
| Quote: | There's no way they would try to force their way into your
home and remove wiring. Not to mention that they would
want to leave it there in case you moved.
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Did I say that the cable co. would force their way into your home?
No. Forced entry is entirely a different matter from property
ownership. And given that cable is so cheap, and given that most
customers consider the cabling to be their own, the cable company
wouldn't expend the labor needed to retrieve cabling when it would
only anger the public.
I merely asserted that they could legally remove the cabling.
Access to it is another matter. In practice, it means that they can
remove or re-route or cut into wiring that they can get at when
you allow them into your home or premises. Our cable company
has the legal right to demand access to their trunk cable that
enters our property and to access their amplifier and taps, but
they must also schedule an appointment ahead of time with someone
who has keys to the storerooms. Once they have access to the
equipment that is theirs, they can do anything they want with it -
including removing it.
*TimDaniels* |
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Timothy Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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"Ed Nielsen" wrote:
| Quote: | In most MDUs where the cable company (or authorized contractor)
installed the cabling at their own expense, the cable company signs
a Right of Entry for a set period of time, usually 7 years. After the
ROE expires, the cabling belongs to the property and is free to be
used for whatever the property owner sees fit.
|
In the case of our MDU satellite system, the HOA owns everything -
that is part of the contract that we negotiated. But we also granted
a ROE since the MDU installer was responsible for proper
functioning of the equipment. And everything downstream of the
splitters and taps was put in for cable TV more than 20 years ago
<hee hee>. Some of our residents even used their one cable to
get both satellite TV and cable Internet by using a diplexer at both
ends of the cable.
*TimDaniels* |
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$Bill
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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Timothy Daniels wrote:
| Quote: | "$Bill" wsrote:
There's no way they would try to force their way into your
home and remove wiring. Not to mention that they would
want to leave it there in case you moved.
Did I say that the cable co. would force their way into your home?
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I didn't mean literally. :)
| Quote: | No. Forced entry is entirely a different matter from property
ownership. And given that cable is so cheap, and given that most
customers consider the cabling to be their own, the cable company
wouldn't expend the labor needed to retrieve cabling when it would
only anger the public.
|
Without any signed paperwork by you, they can't touch your inside wiring.
There's no way they can prove ownership. In my case, the Cableco that
may have installed the wiring (I don't know who actually did the install)
is no longer doing business in town.
| Quote: | I merely asserted that they could legally remove the cabling.
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I disagree.
| Quote: | Access to it is another matter. In practice, it means that they can
remove or re-route or cut into wiring that they can get at when
you allow them into your home or premises. Our cable company
has the legal right to demand access to their trunk cable that
enters our property and to access their amplifier and taps, but
they must also schedule an appointment ahead of time with someone
who has keys to the storerooms. Once they have access to the
equipment that is theirs, they can do anything they want with it -
including removing it.
|
Equipment fine, cabling - no way without a signed agreement. Nor would
they want to. |
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Warren H
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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Timothy Daniels wrote:
| Quote: | Did I say that the cable co. would force their way into your home?
No. Forced entry is entirely a different matter from property
ownership. And given that cable is so cheap, and given that most
customers consider the cabling to be their own, the cable company
wouldn't expend the labor needed to retrieve cabling when it would
only anger the public.
I merely asserted that they could legally remove the cabling.
|
In single unit residential property, no, they can't. Not without your
permission. Once it's installed in the home, it ceases to be personal
property, and becomes a part of the real property. You own the real
property. They do not have an easement or any other kind of lein on the
cabling that has become a part of your real property.
This does not apply to commercial or some multi-unit residential
properties, including common areas in condos, co-ops, or HOA's.
| Quote: | Access to it is another matter. In practice, it means that they
can
remove or re-route or cut into wiring that they can get at when
you allow them into your home or premises.
|
You have the right to refuse them access. You have the right to refuse
to allow any changes. They have the right to disconnect you from their
network. They cannot unilatterally make changes to cabling that has
become a part of your real property. You must grant them permission to
do so. The only place they can demand access to is any cable running in
their easment, which typically is on their side of the tap. Even your
drop typically runs outside their easement, and is part of your real
property.
| Quote: | Our cable company
has the legal right to demand access to their trunk cable that
enters our property and to access their amplifier and taps, but
they must also schedule an appointment ahead of time with someone
who has keys to the storerooms. Once they have access to the
equipment that is theirs, they can do anything they want with it -
including removing it.
|
You're talking about commercial or multi-unit residential which is an
entirely different animal than single unit residential. The cable
company has no right to demand access to any part of your property
except for the utility easement properly recorded in the county records.
They cannot demand access to someone's home. They can, however,
disconnect you from their network. That act could only be done within
their easement, for example at the tap, not at the house end of the
drop.
The situation is different for commercial and multi-unit residential,
including common areas of condos, co-ops, and HOA's.
Homeowners, sitting in their single family homes, do not have to worry
about a cable company ever asking for the installed cable back. They
don't have to allow cable company employees access. The only recourse
the cable company has is they can disconnect the home owner from their
network. After that happens, the home owner is free to repurpose that
cable for use with a satellite TV system, or a different cable company's
system, or whatever they want to use it for. The cable company cannot
remove it. They cannot demand it's removal. And once it's disconnected
from their network, they cannot dictate it's use.
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker |
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Eric
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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On Apr 21, 9:44 am, demie...@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Apr 21, 7:34 am, Eric <egruml...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 19, 5:20 pm, demie...@yahoo.com wrote:
Me friend and I are interested in starting a custom cable ( TV )
company, just simple in home custom installs.
Does anyone know if this is possible? Are there laws or rules in place
by the cable companies that will not allow this.
Is there a way to do it with them but not work for them on their
appts.
Maybe give them a percent, or some legal papers so they don't think
the customer is stealing form them, even though we all know it is out
ther everywhere.
Is anyone doing this already.....
Thank you for any information..
Dominic
You are not permitted to go beyond the ground block (also known as the
demarcation point). The cable company "owns" the drop going to the
house. Other than that, knock yourself out. Just keep in mind that you
become responsible for the inside wiring, and if it is not up to cable
company standards, they can and will disconnect it (or at least blame
you for any and all problems the customer may have).
If you want to become a contractor for the cable company, that's a
different story. You'll need lots of insurance, specific tools, and a
high tolerance for being treated like scum.
Do you mean from the ground block up to pole or down to tap... I'm
assuming..?
you can work from the ground block inward right without any problems??
Also, do you know if there is something differnt you need to know when
working on Boats or Yachts' ? I did a small job on a Yacht, that was
behind the owners house, ( just a relocate ) but I not up on what
would be needed to work on custom jobs on Yachts....any Info?
Thanks again for your input; and I was thinking of doing something
with a lawyer, that would state and be signed by the customer that
they must contact the local cable company to activate this custom
line. This would hopefully free me from any problems with the Carries.
Dominic
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Wow. Opened up a can of worms with this one...
The cable company (and the phone company), is responsible for
connecting your house to the distribution system. There is a clearly
defined demarcation point where the company's responsibility ends and
the customer's responsibility begins (this is also true to a point in
electrical systems, although most power companies make the home
electrician run all the drop cable). In the case of cable tv, the
demarc is usually the ground block. However, most cable companies use
an interface box (sometimes called a SDU or NIU) as the demarc. Where
I used to work, there was a court case that decided the demarc was 1
ft outside the SDU or the ground block, if no SDU was installed.
However, this was for a very specific reason I don't really want to
get into right now, and was hardly precedent setting.
That being said, there is a constant struggle between the "customer
friendly" factions and the "stick to the rules" factions in most cable
companies. The technician is to do whatever is necessary to get the
customer up and running, unless the problem is wiring that "can't be
replaced" by the tech, at which time he is to inform the customer that
the problem is inside there house and they should contact an
electrician to replace the bad wire. However, this almost never
happens, since the electrician will want big bucks, or in the case of
a builder, will get into a pissing contest with the cable company
about his crappy cable being "just fine" and that technician is "full
of ****" and handing the customer a "big bill" for "wasting their
time." This causes a trip to the office, equipment in hand, and a lot
of bad feelings. If a supervisor is available, they have a little chat
with the customer, roll another truck, and most likely the next tech
will run another line, or do a better job of documenting the problems
with the bad line. Trust me, it is almost always better to just run a
new cable if there's any way to make it happen. That way the customer
is at least able to get service, and they can deal with the builder
without having to get us involved.
So, if you haven't been discouraged by all the scary stuff in this
thread, go for it. I've thought of doing custom low voltage stuff for
years, but never had the stones to strike out on my own. Besides, I
like being able to play with all the big toys (and get free cable).
As far as the yacht, I would think as long as you followed NEC
guidelines for grounding shore power, it shouldn't be a big deal
(although cable only comes in 1000 ft rolls... sorry. I couldn't help
it).
Eric
Eric
*technical term |
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Eric
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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On Apr 21, 11:04 am, "Whomever" <alter...@nospam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not so sure that's true of all providers. Here in Tampa Bright House is
responsible for all the wiring, all the way to the attachment to the modem
or tv. They ran the cable for me from the pole to the junction on the house
and then up thru the attic, down the wall and to the cable modem.
Sure, any cable company will run outlets and activate them. However, |
many systems don't wall fish, or install outlets in apartments/condos,
and in some cases rentals. Same is true for the phone company. It is
just that an electrician or low voltage contractor may do a better
job, since they are only charging for the installation of the cable,
not the service activation (you'll also pay much more for the
electrician). Can't get cable without an active outlet! |
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Eric
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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On Apr 22, 1:03 pm, "Warren H" <whol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Homeowners, sitting in their single family homes, do not have to worry
about a cable company ever asking for the installed cable back. They
don't have to allow cable company employees access. The only recourse
the cable company has is they can disconnect the home owner from their
network. After that happens, the home owner is free to repurpose that
cable for use with a satellite TV system, or a different cable company's
system, or whatever they want to use it for. The cable company cannot
remove it. They cannot demand it's removal. And once it's disconnected
from their network, they cannot dictate it's use.
|
Inside wiring is put there because it is necessary. The customer pays
for it at the time of installation. They may have only paid .99 for
it, but they did pay something. Physical cable is a capital expense
for the cable company.
The only thing you may not be right on is the drop, but it depends on
where the franchise (or some legal document) determines the demarc is.
As I understand it, most of them say it is at the ground block, since
that follows generally accepted practices with other utilities (power
company at the meter base, phone company at the NIU). If you want to
use the cable company drop for connection to a satellite dish, for
example, that is not allowed, but if you disconnect the drop from the
ground block and attach a line to a dish, that is OK.
Of course, if you're steaming mad at the cable company, we'll be happy
to remove the drop from your house. Just understand that pant sticks
to plastic jacket material better than wood!  |
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Timothy Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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"Warren H" wrote:
| Quote: | Timothy Daniels wrote:
If they supply the parts and labor for the in-house wiring,
they can probably legally retrieve it and/or prevent you from
using it for satellite reception if you should close your account
with them. Here in L.A., our condo HOA chose to hire our
own cablers to put in the cable when we heard how the cable
company's yahoos were going to route the cables. 15 years
later, when dbs satellite was introduced, the cable company
wanted us to sign a 20-year exclusive use agreement in return
for a cheap bulk account. But, we reasoned that no such "gift"
is really free, and we turned them down. We eventually found
out that they had realized that *we* owned our cabling and they
wanted to block us from using it for satellite. Then, 5 yrs later,
we added a satellite system - that uses the same cabling. We
wouldn't have been able to do that if the cable company had
installed our cabling.
An apartment building, condo development, co-op, and common
areas of an HOA are very different than a single residential unit.
In a single residential unit, cabling installed ceases to be personal
property, and becomes part of the real property. In the other
situations, the cabling remains personal property or trade fixtures.
The cable company can only get back the cabling *installed* in
a single residential unit if they had a lien against the property. Even
then, they would need to restore the property to it's prior condition,
or pay for damages. And they'd have to provide the labor. That's
way, way beyond what it costs to just allow the cable to become
part of the real property it's installed in. And once it's part of the
real property you own, you can repurpose it for whatever you like,
as long as you disconnect it from their network.
In the case of multi-unit residential properties, things are different.
In your state a duplex or even a four-plex may still fall under the
same rules as a single family home, but I don't believe that there
are any states where anything larger than a four-plex doesn't fall
under different property rules. And the common areas of a condo
association, co-op, or HOA definitely don't enjoy the same
protections as single family property in any state. In those situations,
they most likely can retain ownership of the cabling. They may have
to restore any damage done if they remove it, but they may also be
able to elect to leave it in place, but still prevent it from being re-
purposed.
As for the cable boxes and cable modems, they aren't installed in the
real property. They are mealy connected to the cable. The cable
company may also ask for that short length of cable that you connect
between the boxes and the coax outlet in the wall, as it isn't installed
in the real property, either.
If you want to confirm my interpretation of the difference between
cable installed in a single unit and a multi unit, and at what point the
distinction is made in your state, consult an attorney specializing in
real estate issues. But as for the difference in legal status between
the cable installed in a home, and the modem that's just placed there,
any licensed real estate broker should be qualified to give you a
definitive answer on that one. (And if they aren't, your state needs
better licensing standards.)
--
Warren H.
|
Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit and
a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling installed
in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
(i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
"Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and experience,
know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the right
to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.
I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why our
cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
was coming.
*TimDaniels* |
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Warren H
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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Timothy Daniels wrote>
| Quote: | Regarding the difference between cable installed in a single unit
and a multi-unit building, I had a conversation with one of our owners
who is a licensed Real Estate Attorney in the State of California,
specialising in home owner association law. She works in the lien
division of a well-known HOA law firm in Los Angeles. She said
that she knows of no distinction in the law between cabling
installed
in the walls of a single family residence and in the common area
(i.e. in the walls) of an MDU building, and she asked rhtorically,
"Why should there be?" Like an attorney, she did not deny what you
stated, but merely that she does not, in her legal training and
experience,
know it to be true. Perhaps you have had contact with attorneys
more specialized in utility company law, or perhaps you have been
brain-washed by your company's corporate culture. Either way, the
ownership rights of cabling installed by a cable company and the
right
to control its usage past the demarcation point is still cloudy.
|
I'll give you a slightly different example to help illustrate the
difference.
(First off, there are only two kinds of property: Real property, and
Personal property. So when I speak of personal property, that doesn't
necessarily mean a person owns it. A business could own it. Personal
property is simply anything that isn't real property.)
You own your home. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the kitchen waithing to be installed is personal property.
When it gets installed, it becomes part of the real property. When you
move, you don't get to take the installed cabinet with you because it is
now part of the house.
You own a business. You have a cabinet installed. That cabinet when it's
sitting in the middle of the store is personal property. When it gets
installed, it does not become part of the real property. It is a trade
fixture, and remains personal property.
See the difference?
In a single family home, there is no question, the cabinet becomes real
property. In a factory, a store, or any other facility that's clearly
commercial, the cabinet remains personal property because it's a trade
fixture. Multi-unit residential property is a tricky animal, and
different states may make draw the line differently. Inside a
residential unit is also going to be different than in common areas.
In a single family home, there is no question that in order for the
cable company to maintain a proprietary interest in the cable that's
installed, they would need a lien. They can't maintain a proprietary
interest in the cable once it becomes part of the real property.
In a commercial property, the cable company can keep a proprietary
interest in the trade fixtures they install if it's in the installation
contract. Even if they don't retain a proprietary interest in the cable,
it belongs to the business owner, not the landlord (the owner of the
real property). Whoever owns the trade fixture has a right to take it
with them, even after a sale of the real property, assuming that they
return the real property to pre-installation condition.
If someone occupieing an apartment installes a light fixture, before it
is installed, it's the renter's personal property. Once it's installed,
it's the landlord's real property, and the renter technically cannot
remove and restore without the real property owner giving up title to
the property. If a business is renting the property, when they install
that light fixture, it remains their personal property, and they can
remove and restore without requesting the real property owner give up
title because the real property owner never had title to the fixture.
But what about installing a fixture in a non-residental portion of an
apartment building, or the common area of a condo or co-op?
The question is when does personal property become real property. In the
case of a single family residential unit, it's clearly when that
personal property is installed. In the case of clearly commercial
property, that personal property can remain personal property even after
being installed because it's a trade fixture. The issue is where does
multi-unit residential property fall in this spectrum. And don't forget,
the common areas are different than the individual residential units,
too.
I would suggest that you did not present the question correctly to your
attorney friend. And I would also suggest that those situations in the
middle of the spectrum are exactly why attornies stay in business.
Absent of any clearly applicable statutes, it is quite possible for
there to be a difference of opinion based just on the Common Law that is
the foundation of our legal system. There can also be a difference in
opinion as to whether specific statues apply in a given case. So when
your attorney asked you "why would there be a difference", that could
also be taken as, "which side of the arguement do you want me to take",
as people on both sides will easily be able to find attornies who can
support either side of the arguement.
| Quote: | I suspect that the normal procedure by a cable company installing
the cable itself in an MDU building is to require a contract that
guarantees it sole usage past the demarcation point since much
of the cabling installed would not immediately be used to support
a subscription and thus not result in immediate cash flow (unless
there were a bulk account covering ALL units). In a single family
residence, in contrast, there is a guarantee of an immediate cash
flow that would pay for the cabling job. That would explain why
our
cable company was so surprised to find that they had no contract
with us - if they had installed the cabling themselves, there WOULD
have been a contract, and it is such a contract that would make
legally clear what the cable company's rights are. And that is why
they turned around and offered us a discount on a bulk subscription
in return for an exclusive usage contract - they knew satellite TV
was coming.
|
Nope. It comes down to the difference between when personal property
becomes real property, and how easily they can keep a proprietary
interest in the cable itself, versus what the benefit of retaining that
proprietary interest in the cable may be.
If there wasn't a difference, as soon as the MDU's contract for service
ended, they could simply use the cable left behind for whatever they
wanted to use it for, just the same way a homeowner can use the cable
installed in their property.
So in one case, the cable is personal property, specifically a trade
fixture, while in the other case, the cable becomes a part of the real
property. Simple concepts. What's questionable is where is the line
drawn. Single-family homes are clearly on one end of the spectrum. MDU's
are in the middle, and given that the cable companies routinely claim to
retain proprietary rights in the cable they install in MDU's, it's quite
clear that there is a difference.
If there isn't a difference, then either homeowners wouldn't be able to
convert their inside cabling for their own use, or the contracts that
the cable companies have with many MDU's would be unenforceable. But
again, you could easily get attorneys who would be willing to argue any
side of the issue, and offer compelling support for their position.
Our best bet is to go with what is practiced every day. And that is that
the cable companies treat single family homes differently than MDU's
regardless of the variations in state laws that could apply. The
practice is there is a difference, and that's what it comes down to.
--
Warren H.
==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Maintain your landscape with Black & Decker:
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blackanddecker |
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Timothy Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Custom Cable tv |
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Say what?
*TimDaniels* |
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