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willbill
Guest
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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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Bob Myers wrote:
| Quote: | "willbill" <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:eq32ec01bf1@enews1.newsguy.com...
yes you are a "the"
do you still work for HP?
Yes, I do,
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congrats, and i really mean that
otoh and imo and fwiw, your open anti
CRT position may risk your job
| Quote: | although every time I say that I also need to note that
I do not speak for the company here or in any other newsgroup;
any opinions given here are strictly my own.
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agreed
you've been very upfront with stating
that every time i've seen
| Quote: | But no, I'm not a "fan boy"
very doubtful
I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "fan boy".
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to me "fan boy" means:
one who supports a future position even
though it isn't merited in the present
that was especially true 3 years ago,
when you posted strongly in favor of
flatscreen; also i'll grant that it's
a still closer call (against you) today
| Quote: | in my extensive experience with the
web's usenet, yes you *are* a fan boy
of both flat screen PC monitors, and
also of Intel CPUs, even though you
very recently started an interesting
thread in the ..chips newsgroup
regarding you having actually
recently bought an AMD CPU/modo
Now you apparently have me confused with someone else
(not at all unusual, and there's even more than one person with
my name working for my employer). I have absolutely no
opinion on Intel vs. AMD CPUs, and I have never written
anything to a .chips newsgroup.
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interesting
we have a jerk by your name on the ..chips
n/g posting to his now being an owner of AMD
mobo/CPU, but still being a believer of Intel. :\
(see: Re: My lack of enthusiasm for AMD
dated: 1/12/2007)
| Quote: | Re flat screen monitors, I'm
not even really giving an opinion here on that - simply reporting
the realities of the market.
- I'm just someone who's been working in computer monitors
and other electronic displays for about 25 years now.
what a bunch of crud!
Not at all; if you have some reason for disbelieving my
professional background, you might want to give it here.
The fact is
that the "flat screen," and specifically the LCD, is the 800-pound
gorilla in this market right now.
my very recent experience with CRT and
high end digital flat screen sez otherwize
By "800 pound gorilla in this market," I refer to the fact that
LCD monitors presently account for well over 80% of the
worldwide desktop monitor market (by unit volume; in terms
of revenue, the LCD is already over 90% of the total dollar
volume of the market), and the share by both measures is
increasing. Almost all of the major manufacturers of high-end
CRT monitors have either exited the market or announced their
intention to do so (e.g., Sony, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Hitachi,
etc.); the remaining CRT displays in the desktop monitor market
are very low-end, entry level products, and a very, very few
high-end, specialized displays. If your "very recent experience"
contradicts any of this, then please state your case. Note that
this isn't about advantages or disadvantages in any given area
of performance - as I said, the CRT still enjoys some advantages
vs the LCD (or even other technologies). But even that situation
is very rapidly changing. And again, please note that I'm saying
nothing here regarding my own personal preferences (in point
of fact, I regularly use two different desktop monitors - one LCD,
and one CRT). But I also know the difference betwee personal
preference, and what's actually happening in the industry.
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still sez to me that you are a flat
screen fan boy
i have a very recent Samsung 204B 20" flatscreen
(1600x1200) and a recent Philips 22" and 19" CRT
both CRTs get my vote over the 204B flatscreen
am i missing something?
bill |
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willbill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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/Bob Myers wrote:
| Quote: | "willbill" <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:eq3mmk0rjm@enews4.newsguy.com...
what's really still better are the blacks
and the gray scale and the response
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| Quote: | I'm not sure what you mean when you say the "gray
scale" is better - a better response curve, greater
dynamic range, what? Better blacks - unless you're
using the CRT under dark-room conditions, where the
lower black level is actually perceivable, I doubt this;
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interesting you'd focus in on my last sentence
this is my recent experience with my 22"
Philips CRT
it does better blacks and gray scale and
response, and has usable res up to 1920x1440
(actually to 2048x1536, but i've not (so far)
pushed it to that)
ok, exactly how long has it been since you've
used any CRT for over a month? my bet is years
meaning you don't make judgements like this
in an hour or a week or even a month
also, the OP is pretty clearly goning to
buy a flat screen, so why are you posting?
let's see: because *i* am in favor of CRT?
why is it that you feel sooo threatened by
anyone openly posting in favor of the CRT?
i mean, CRTs are clearly in their death thros (sp?)
| Quote: | but if you ARE using the CRT in the dark, it should be
noted that this remaining advantage of the CRT is
rapidly going away.
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"rapidly going away" is true
meaning that the CRTs that are still left, have
merit over the best/latest flat screens, but not
as much as a year or two ago
meaning that you have been (3 years ago,
when flat screen had limited merit over CRT)
a major fan boy of flat screen PC monitors
i simply don't get it
| Quote: | The CRT is no longet the champion
in terms of contrast/dynamic range (it's not the LCD, either
current, but LCDs ARE rapidly getting better in that regard).
By "response," I can only assume you mean response time -
and that is the other remaining major difference between the
two technologies. CRTs are faster in terms of response, but
it's also a very different sort of response - the CRT being
a true raster-scan device, while the LCD basically is a
"write and hold" sort of display. LCDs are now widely
available with response times well under a video frame
time - down in the 5 ms range and under - but the "hold"
behavior still makes for a different "look" to the display.
Various techniques are now being used to improve what's
called the "motion picture response time" - different from the
simple on/off transition rate - but those have to date mostly
been used in TV panels. They're only starting to trickle into
the monitor market.
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geez
flat screen fan boy sums it up
| Quote: |
But even that shows a very significant difference between the
two technologies - significant development is still going on in
the case of the LCD and other types. I can't recall the last
truly significant paper I saw on a new development in CRT
technology. R&D dollars go where the future is.
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the issue in this thread isn't where
the R&D bucks are going
the issue is if the last of the CRT monitors
still have merit over flat screen monitors
my vote is that they still do
bill |
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DRS
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"Bob Myers" <nospamplease@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:vhQxh.109$7G3.1@news.cpqcorp.net
[...]
| Quote: | Only that your personal preferences - or mine, for that matter -
aren't what drive this market.
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Ain't that the truth. I'm so glad I got my 19" Mitsubishi Diamond Digital
just before they disappeared. |
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Bob Myers
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"willbill" <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:eq8ciu01r51@enews5.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | otoh and imo and fwiw, your open anti
CRT position may risk your job
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Sorry, but you're still confused about this; nothing I'm saying
here has to do with "my" position one way or the other. I
am merely reporting what IS already going on in the market,
and what we can reasonably expect to happen in the future.
My personal preferences don't enter into that.
| Quote: | to me "fan boy" means:
one who supports a future position even
though it isn't merited in the present
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OK - but in that case, I would say you've yet to show why
anything I have said about the future of this industry isn't
merited.
| Quote: |
that was especially true 3 years ago,
when you posted strongly in favor of
flatscreen; also i'll grant that it's
a still closer call (against you) today
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So let's see how things are going here - you're saying that
3 years ago, I posted "strongly in favor of flatscreen,"
which I'm assuming means I posted something suggesting that
the non-CRT display types (and specifically the LCD) would
take over the market. They've done exactly that. Three years
ago from right now - in other words, early 2004, the CRT was
still just barely the #1 display in the market in unit-volume terms.
It had already lost that position in terms of revenues. It lost the
unit-volume leadership by the end of that year, and now enjoys
an under-20% (and declining) market share. So what, exactly,
did I say 3 years ago that was incorrect?
| Quote: | Now you apparently have me confused with someone else
(not at all unusual, and there's even more than one person with
my name working for my employer). I have absolutely no
opinion on Intel vs. AMD CPUs, and I have never written
anything to a .chips newsgroup.
interesting
we have a jerk by your name on the ..chips
n/g posting to his now being an owner of AMD
mobo/CPU, but still being a believer of Intel. 
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Could very well be; I'm certainly aware that my name isn't
all that unusual. I know of three "Bob Myers" in my local
area besides myself, and as many as FIVE of us have worked
for my present employer at the same time. I, of course, can
take no responsibility for what any of the others might have to
say on any given subject.
| Quote: | - I'm just someone who's been working in computer monitors
and other electronic displays for about 25 years now.
what a bunch of crud!
Not at all; if you have some reason for disbelieving my
professional background, you might want to give it here.
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Since you didn't say anything further on this, shall I assume that
you no longer consider the above statement to be "a bunch of
crud?"
| Quote: |
i have a very recent Samsung 204B 20" flatscreen
(1600x1200) and a recent Philips 22" and 19" CRT
both CRTs get my vote over the 204B flatscreen
am i missing something?
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Only that your personal preferences - or mine, for that matter -
aren't what drive this market.
Bob M. |
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Bob Myers
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"willbill" <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:eq8civ11r51@enews5.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | it does better blacks and gray scale and
response, and has usable res up to 1920x1440
(actually to 2048x1536, but i've not (so far)
pushed it to that)
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I still don't know what you mean by "better gray
scale" or "response" - I've given my guesses as to
what you might mean, earlier - but until you clarify
this it's going to be hard to comment further.
| Quote: |
ok, exactly how long has it been since you've
used any CRT for over a month? my bet is years
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Sorry, you lose - and apparently didn't read my last
post very closely. I've got a CRT monitor in regular use,
AND an LCD monitor in regular use as well. I've also
formally evaluated literally dozens of examples of both
types over the years.
| Quote: | also, the OP is pretty clearly goning to
buy a flat screen, so why are you posting?
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To clear up some misunderstandings and erroneous information
that was presented earlier in this thread.
| Quote: |
let's see: because *i* am in favor of CRT?
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Nope; doesn't make a hill of beans difference to me one way
or the other. I don't even have any idea who you are, so why
would YOU being in favor of CRTs concern me?
| Quote: | why is it that you feel sooo threatened by
anyone openly posting in favor of the CRT?
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I don't. But if someone posts - in ADDITION to statements
relating to personal preference - erroneous information relating
to the behavior of a given technology or the state of the display
industry/market overall, I'm going to correct that. Sorry if this
offends you.
Bob M. |
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Bob Myers
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"willbill" <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in message
news:eqdosl0o91@enews1.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | i'll bite, let's hear it: give a numbered list of
where you think the CRT is objectively superior
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The more important parameters where the CRT
would be superior include black level (and with it,
dark-room contrast), the inherent response curve
("gamma"), and, of course, response time (especially the
so-called "motion picture" response time, at least until very
recently). Also until recently the CRT would typically have
the ability to resolve more effective gray levels, in part
due to the response curve advantage. CRTs would also
typically be better at meeting certain color gamut requirements,
but this is because the gamuts in question were specified
with CRTs in mind in the first place (e.g., sRGB or Rec. 709).
| Quote: |
ok, give a numbered list of where you think the
LCD is objectively superior
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Brightness (for typical monitor products), geometry, "focus"
(not really comparable, but the LCD and other flat technologies
are inherently fixed-pixel devices and so have essentially
perfect "focus"), contrast under typical ambients/brightness
levels, color gamut (recently, esp. with LED backlighting),
plus of course the obvious advantages in weight, thickness,
ambient E & M field and EMI immunity, power, and reliability.
These last few are often the most important concerns for
many customers and applications. Recent LCDs have also
demonstrated support for much higher resolution (either in
the sense of PPI or addressable pixels) than could ever be
clearly achieved with a CRT of comparable brightness.
| Quote: | i get nervous with people like you who
are going to educate us as to what is
and isn't "objectively" true
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You can be nervous all you like; if you disagree with
anything I say regarding objective qualities, however, I
will ask that you tell me what you think the "right"
answer is.
| Quote: | you were clearly flat wrong with your
adulation of flatscreen 3 years ago
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Yes, apparently, given the domination of the market
that I mentioned before - which started a bit over
3 years ago as of now, and currently has reached the
point where the LCD is significantly over the 80%
market share point.
| Quote: | fwiw, odds are your past open posting in
favor of flatscreen has hurt your job
with HP so i suggest you be careful here
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Your concern for my career is noted, and please rest assured
that I will give it exactly the attention that it warrants.
Bob M. |
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Pipboy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:45:15 GMT, Bob Myers wrote:
| Quote: | The bottom line is that I have no objection to anyone saying "I
prefer CRTs" OR "I prefer LCDs." When the conversation heads
off into flat statements of "This one IS better," that's when I'm going
to object.
Bob M.
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OK, sorry for confusing you with someone else. I'm a gamer and CRT is the
still tops for that purpose. If I was a using a monitor for word
processing, programming, CAD then I would choose LCD. I've had two LCD's so
far and both have dissapointed me as their flaws and limitations are too
obvious to me. |
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Pipboy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:51:55 -0600, willbill wrote:
| Quote: | i mean you've posted in favor of flatscreen
here for the last 3+ years
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Hmm, maybe it is him. I remember some LCD evangelist in this group feeding
me BS about LCD manufacturer's when I complained about them using grey to
grey for response times. I told him black to white takes longer and is what
they should be using, he lied and said grey to grey takes longer than black
to white and the manufacturers were using the correct way to measure pixel
respose time. |
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DRS
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"Pipboy" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:sh05dpwhw0xr.32qeybde7lby.dlg@40tude.net
| Quote: | On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 17:51:55 -0600, willbill wrote:
i mean you've posted in favor of flatscreen
here for the last 3+ years
Hmm, maybe it is him. I remember some LCD evangelist in this group
feeding me BS about LCD manufacturer's when I complained about them
using grey to grey for response times. I told him black to white
takes longer and is what they should be using, he lied and said grey
to grey takes longer than black to white and the manufacturers were
using the correct way to measure pixel respose time.
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GTG is indeed a superior measure than the average response time when it's
done properly, and yes, in certain cases it can be slower than the average
(it can be faster too). Given the stick manufacturers have taken from
people who know what they're talking about over not providing GTG times, if
I were you I'd be pleasantly surprised you found one trying to do the right
thing. |
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Pipboy
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:29:33 GMT, Bob Myers wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, apparently, given the domination of the market
that I mentioned before - which started a bit over
3 years ago as of now, and currently has reached the
point where the LCD is significantly over the 80%
market share point.
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My experience with LCD goes back a bit more than 3 years ago. I paid over
$800.00 CAD for a 17" Samsung 171S. Much happier now with my current 22"
Diamondtron tube. |
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Davy
GURU
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1862
Location: Nr Manchester. UK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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One CRT manufacturer designed a 'Flat Pack' CRT ~ without delving I think it was Philips & LG Goldstar, would have to check to be honest.
This is no thicker than your Plasma or LCD... the technology did'nt use a heater electrode as used in CRTs but used the Cold Cathode principle, this was in a edition of 'Television Servicing' magazine a while back.
I much prefer CRT's myself.... at least the viewing angle ain't restricted and..... they last a wee bit longer than CCFL back light tube's.
Whatever happened to the Sinclair TV.... that used a flat CRT with the electrodes mounted on the side of the display as opposed to the 'long neck' variety.
Davy |
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rjn
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"Bob Myers" <nospample...@address.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | Assume you'll need to cart it to San Diego for refurb.
Bob, I'm not even sure they still DO that in Sandy Eggo....
been quite some time since I was down there, though.
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That was where I sent my GDM FW-900
for refurb before selling it on eBay a couple
of years ago.
Sony could have moved the operation, but
I suspect they still do hi-end refurbs somewhere,
as many CRT users are clearly unwilling to move
to LCD yet (and if I were in heavy pre-press, I might
be buying all the Artisans that turn up on eBay :-)
So let me update the eBay advice:
Buy Sony.
But first find out where you'll need to Fedex it
for refurb (and Fedex was by far the cheapest).
--
Regards, Bob Niland mailto:name@ispname.tld
http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com
NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider. |
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Bob Myers
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:22 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"Pipboy" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:1amwbe54ge310$.nmgp6usgn4sp$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:29:33 GMT, Bob Myers wrote:
Yes, apparently, given the domination of the market
that I mentioned before - which started a bit over
3 years ago as of now, and currently has reached the
point where the LCD is significantly over the 80%
market share point.
My experience with LCD goes back a bit more than 3 years ago.
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Mine does, too. I worked on my first LCD monitor design in
the late 1980s. At that time, the panel alone (which was by no
means a 17") cost several thousand dollars in small production
volumes. The sole benefits were that it enabled a thin, light
monitor that wasn't troubled by magnetic fields, which was a big
deal for several customers at the time.
Bob M. |
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DRS
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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"Bob Myers" <nospamplease@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:kP3zh.48$X_5.46@news.cpqcorp.net
[...]
| Quote: | The solution to this in modern panels is "overdrive," which is a
method in which a higher voltage than is needed for the intended gray
level is initially applied across the LC, and then the voltage is
reduced on subsequent frames until that cell "settles in" to a stable
gray state. This method improves the GtG response significantly over
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I've read of problems with overdrive. If the voltage is too high it can
produce bright artifacts around moving objects. |
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Pipboy
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: Re: What local retail stores still sell CRT monitors? |
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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:19:44 GMT, Bob Myers wrote:
| Quote: | "Pipboy" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message > The solution to this in modern panels is "overdrive," which is a method
in which a higher voltage than is needed for the intended gray level is
initially applied across the LC,
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Overdrive technology causes burnin. I should know because I had a POS
Viewsonic LCD HDTV that got burn in from usimng overdrive technology. Look
it up if you don't believe me. I took that sick puppy back for a refund
even though I had owned it for 9 montyhs already. |
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