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Big Sky
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 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: NFORCE3-A: What memory |
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I just got this motherboard and intend to overclock a Sempron 3100+ up to
the max FSB of 250MHz if possible. I intend to get a single stick of PC4000
RAM for this job. However, the manual mentions something about only using
up to "dual rank" DIMMs in a socket and if you use a dual rank DIMM in each
socket you'll limit yourself to PC2700 speeds. I asked ECS tech support and
was told to only get low density DIMMS.
How do I know if a DIMM is low density especially if its a 1 MB DIMM? It
gets confusing when looking into ranks, single vs dual sided DIMMs, device
count, etc. I already bought one set of RAM that didn't work right (one
reason why I want to go to a single 1 GB DIMM solution). It doesn't help
that many manufacturers of memory as well as retailers don't quote all the
detailed specs nor do they ever characterize the "density" of the DIMMs.
Thanks for any help.
BM |
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Brian Campbell
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: Re: NFORCE3-A: What memory |
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As confusing as that was, I think I figured your post out. You are
looking for dual channel memory. I do find it odd a nforce chipset would
go down to pc2700 speeds when the memory is added in pairs. I believe
that is an error. Crappier chipsets had that problem, but never heard of
it from a nvidia chipset.
As for high density memory, it is incompatable with a lot of motherboards
and chipsets, it is generally incompatable with nforce and intel
chipsets, so make sure you get memory that will work on the nforce.
Fortunatly, if you do not buy cheap, and it is dual channel memory, it is
likely to be low density memory. Dual channel memory when added in pairs
does give a performance improvment, so try to buy exact pairs, not a
single stick.
Also remember that there are no guarantees when it comes to overclocking.
250 mhz is a pretty lofty goal, which can be hampered by cooling, the
memory, the chipset, and of course the CPU. I wish you well, but do not
expect that this is a given.
Big Sky (bmartin84@cox.net) wrote:
: I just got this motherboard and intend to overclock a Sempron 3100+ up to
: the max FSB of 250MHz if possible. I intend to get a single stick of PC4000
: RAM for this job. However, the manual mentions something about only using
: up to "dual rank" DIMMs in a socket and if you use a dual rank DIMM in each
: socket you'll limit yourself to PC2700 speeds. I asked ECS tech support and
: was told to only get low density DIMMS.
: How do I know if a DIMM is low density especially if its a 1 MB DIMM? It
: gets confusing when looking into ranks, single vs dual sided DIMMs, device
: count, etc. I already bought one set of RAM that didn't work right (one
: reason why I want to go to a single 1 GB DIMM solution). It doesn't help
: that many manufacturers of memory as well as retailers don't quote all the
: detailed specs nor do they ever characterize the "density" of the DIMMs.
: Thanks for any help.
: BM |
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tcsenter
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: NFORCE3-A: What memory |
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| Quote: | However, the manual mentions something about only using
up to "dual rank" DIMMs in a socket and if you use a dual
rank DIMM in each socket you'll limit yourself to PC2700 speeds
|
This a limitation of the AMD64 memory controller for SKT754, which is
built into the CPU, not the chipset. The chipset has nothing to do
with memory support for AMD64.
The limitation discussed in the ECS Manual applies to all SKT754 AMD64
processors with single channel memory controller. Look at the memory
module installation matrix for MSI K8N Neo Platinum S754 using NFORCE3
250Gb chipset:
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=572
Even Socket 939 is affected, as shown by the memory installation matrix
for MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum S939 using NFORCE3 Ultra chipset:
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=607
The memory installation matrix you found in the ECS Manual is taken
straight from AMD BIOS and Kernel Developer Guide for the AMD Athlon™
64 and AMD Opteron™ Processors (October 2005); Page 175, Section
4.1.3, Maximum DRAM Speed as a Function of Loading. The AMD datasheet
can be found at the following URL:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26094.PDF.
Later core steppings/revisions such as E3 or E6 *may* allow you to run
a double-ranked DIMM in each socket (four ranks total) @ DDR400 with 2T
Command and other timings relaxed. May is the operative word, it is
not assured. BTW, PC3200/PC2700/PC2100 are memory module
specifications. DDR400/DDR333/DDR266 are DRAM bus speeds.
| Quote: | How do I know if a DIMM is low density especially if its a 1 MB
DIMM? It gets confusing when looking into ranks, single vs dual
sided DIMMs, device count, etc. I already bought one set of RAM
that didn't work right (one reason why I want to go to a single 1 GB
DIMM solution). It doesn't help that many manufacturers of memory
as well as retailers don't quote all the detailed specs nor do they eve
characterize the "density" of the DIMMs.
|
Many DRAM and motherboard manufacturers interchangibly use the terms
bank, rank, and side to mean the same thing, though the correct term is
RANK. Without going into a long technical explanation, for practical
purposes, a rank is the same as one DIMM side. A rank technically does
not mean one DIMM side, but because the physical and electrical
interface between memory modules and memory slots is standardized
according to industry specifications (JEDEC), it works out that one
DIMM side = one DIMM rank. A single-rank module is a single-sided
module. A double-rank module is a double-sided module.
However! There is an exception; memory modules that use 4-bit wide
DRAM chips, such as 64Mx4 or 128Mx4 chips. The "x4" in 64Mx4 or 128Mx4
means each chip has a bus width of 4 bits. A lot of cheap (e.g. $60 ~
$80) 1024MB modules use 128Mx4 DRAM chips instead of chips with a bus
width of 8 or 16 bits (x8 or x16).
These modules have all chips wired into one DIMM rank, even though the
module has chips on both sides. IOW, a 1024MB module built with 128Mx4
DRAM chips will be double-sided (8 chips per side) but it is actually
single-ranked. This is true for modules of any capacity that use (n)x4
DRAM chips; 256MB, 512MB, 1024MB, or whatever.
VIA and SIS chipsets for Athlon XP and Pentium 4 supported x4 DRAM, but
only up to a maximum of 512MB per rank (Intel and NVIDIA chipsets did
not support x4 DRAM at all). Since a 1024MB module built with 128Mx4
chips puts all 1024MB on one rank, these modules wouldn't work (or only
half the module would be detected). 512MB and under could be used
unless the BIOS didn't contain the proper support, which was often the
case with major OEMs like Compaq, HP, and Gateway. A few motherboard
companies habitually neglected to add BIOS support for this type of
memory even when it was supported by the chipset, ASUS being a big one.
The AMD64 memory controller supports a maximum RANK capacity of 1024MB.
So a single-ranked 1024MB module could be used on AMD64...provided
there is support in the BIOS for it.
Many major memory module vendors disclose the density/organization of
the DRAM chips used on the module but you may have to look through
documentation or datasheets on their website. Most major brands do not
use x4 DRAM in their performance line memory (Crucial, Kingston,
Corsair, Mushkin, OCZ, etc.). Look for modules built using 64Mx8 DRAM
chips (a.k.a. devices or components), such as:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80097-51 |
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Big Sky
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: Re: NFORCE3-A: What memory |
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Wow! I sincerely appreciate this information. Hopefully I'll be able to
get this system put together this weekend with my 1 GB PC4000 DIMM. Its a
double sided DIMM. Based on what the manual said, I can add another "dual
rank" DIMM but the max speed supported is DDR333. So, from what you've told
me, if I want to add another DIMM in the future, it will need to be a single
sided DIMM to preclude any problems with ram performance.
Again, thanks.
BM
"tcsenter" <tcsenter@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137176010.320682.320920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | However, the manual mentions something about only using
up to "dual rank" DIMMs in a socket and if you use a dual
rank DIMM in each socket you'll limit yourself to PC2700 speeds
|
This a limitation of the AMD64 memory controller for SKT754, which is
built into the CPU, not the chipset. The chipset has nothing to do
with memory support for AMD64.
The limitation discussed in the ECS Manual applies to all SKT754 AMD64
processors with single channel memory controller. Look at the memory
module installation matrix for MSI K8N Neo Platinum S754 using NFORCE3
250Gb chipset:
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=572
Even Socket 939 is affected, as shown by the memory installation matrix
for MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum S939 using NFORCE3 Ultra chipset:
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/mainboard/mbd/pro_mbd_detail.php?UID=607
The memory installation matrix you found in the ECS Manual is taken
straight from AMD BIOS and Kernel Developer Guide for the AMD AthlonT
64 and AMD OpteronT Processors (October 2005); Page 175, Section
4.1.3, Maximum DRAM Speed as a Function of Loading. The AMD datasheet
can be found at the following URL:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/26094.PDF.
Later core steppings/revisions such as E3 or E6 *may* allow you to run
a double-ranked DIMM in each socket (four ranks total) @ DDR400 with 2T
Command and other timings relaxed. May is the operative word, it is
not assured. BTW, PC3200/PC2700/PC2100 are memory module
specifications. DDR400/DDR333/DDR266 are DRAM bus speeds.
| Quote: | How do I know if a DIMM is low density especially if its a 1 MB
DIMM? It gets confusing when looking into ranks, single vs dual
sided DIMMs, device count, etc. I already bought one set of RAM
that didn't work right (one reason why I want to go to a single 1 GB
DIMM solution). It doesn't help that many manufacturers of memory
as well as retailers don't quote all the detailed specs nor do they eve
characterize the "density" of the DIMMs.
|
Many DRAM and motherboard manufacturers interchangibly use the terms
bank, rank, and side to mean the same thing, though the correct term is
RANK. Without going into a long technical explanation, for practical
purposes, a rank is the same as one DIMM side. A rank technically does
not mean one DIMM side, but because the physical and electrical
interface between memory modules and memory slots is standardized
according to industry specifications (JEDEC), it works out that one
DIMM side = one DIMM rank. A single-rank module is a single-sided
module. A double-rank module is a double-sided module.
However! There is an exception; memory modules that use 4-bit wide
DRAM chips, such as 64Mx4 or 128Mx4 chips. The "x4" in 64Mx4 or 128Mx4
means each chip has a bus width of 4 bits. A lot of cheap (e.g. $60 ~
$80) 1024MB modules use 128Mx4 DRAM chips instead of chips with a bus
width of 8 or 16 bits (x8 or x16).
These modules have all chips wired into one DIMM rank, even though the
module has chips on both sides. IOW, a 1024MB module built with 128Mx4
DRAM chips will be double-sided (8 chips per side) but it is actually
single-ranked. This is true for modules of any capacity that use (n)x4
DRAM chips; 256MB, 512MB, 1024MB, or whatever.
VIA and SIS chipsets for Athlon XP and Pentium 4 supported x4 DRAM, but
only up to a maximum of 512MB per rank (Intel and NVIDIA chipsets did
not support x4 DRAM at all). Since a 1024MB module built with 128Mx4
chips puts all 1024MB on one rank, these modules wouldn't work (or only
half the module would be detected). 512MB and under could be used
unless the BIOS didn't contain the proper support, which was often the
case with major OEMs like Compaq, HP, and Gateway. A few motherboard
companies habitually neglected to add BIOS support for this type of
memory even when it was supported by the chipset, ASUS being a big one.
The AMD64 memory controller supports a maximum RANK capacity of 1024MB.
So a single-ranked 1024MB module could be used on AMD64...provided
there is support in the BIOS for it.
Many major memory module vendors disclose the density/organization of
the DRAM chips used on the module but you may have to look through
documentation or datasheets on their website. Most major brands do not
use x4 DRAM in their performance line memory (Crucial, Kingston,
Corsair, Mushkin, OCZ, etc.). Look for modules built using 64Mx8 DRAM
chips (a.k.a. devices or components), such as:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80097-51 |
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tcsenter
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: NFORCE3-A: What memory |
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| Quote: | Its a double sided DIMM. Based on what the manual said,
I can add another "dual rank" DIMM but the max speed supported
is DDR333. So, from what you've told me, if I want to add another
DIMM in the future, it will need to be a single sided DIMM to preclude
any problems with ram performance.
|
That's it in a nutshell. Single-sided 1024MB DIMMs are hard to find
and probably much more expensive at this time (I actually have not seen
any yet).
As I noted, with an E3 or E6 revision Sempron stepping, you are much
more likely to get a double-sided DIMM in both slots and reliably run
DDR400 but the timings will need to be very relaxed. The benefit of
DDR333 is that you can run more aggressive timings, which will help
compensate for the slower DRAM bus speed and in many applications
almost eliminate any 'real world' performance advantage of DDR400. |
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